One for Doc Scream

[Fred Tobin]

@ SAB 8

Them moment that you chose to resort to hurling invective and personal abuse was the moment that you removed yourself from this debate.

Topender asks

I don't know how you/we/us can get the Australian scientific community to look at this seriously or even get an Aussie TV network to produce a serious mini series or doco on the subject, I mean its not as if they would be short of expert advisers...Opit, Cropper, Healy, Harrison, Gilroy and the list goes on.

When the response to considered critical analysis of the issue is to be abusive (and the SAB 8 example is by no means an orphan), then what do you expect?

[Mike Williams]

Can you tell me any other organism that has "hyper/multidimensional capabilities/characteristics"? Before you go down that road, you have to establish that such thing is possible.

If ..yowies were paranormal..they would not be an "organism"..
So there would be no biological analogy.

If one of those links is the paranormal, then that is a link with zero actual quantifiable evidence.

You are confusing an assertion with a statement of fact.
You are also inadvertently using False Dilemma .

That is why it is called para-normal. If it were backed up by science, then it would be by definition, normal.

Assertion.
Ignoratio Elenchi/irrelevant conclusion.
Ad Verecundiam/Appeal to Authority.
Also, just because areas of the paranormal have given scientific results. repeatedly over time, does not make them "normal".
Science does not work like that.
Unless ones view of the world is rigidly governed by only what is printed in "Nature".
There is a difference between science and scientism.
I also realise why the word "paranormal" is repugnant to many.
Leon Festinger was right on the money.!!

Just for the record here, I am not saying that Yowies are impossible and cannot exist.

Great.!

They are a quite reasonable proposition.

Why.?
Also, see the questions at the bottom of this post.

However, should they exist (and they may well do so) then they are subject to the same realities that you, I and every other living organism on the planet are.

1/assertion 2/Ignoratio Elenchi,irrelevant conclusion 3/Ad Antiquitatem, Appeal to Tradition 4/Argument from Ignorance

Again, it is explaining the mysterious with something even more mysterious and unexplainable.

No...you are missing the point.
The word para-normal does not explain what something is, it explains what something is not.

Any "report" or anything else, for that matter, is only as strong as its weakest link.

Bingo, and the weakest link(which is also a paradox) for yowies are their bipedal brethren overseas.
Why are reports of yowies/sasquatch/yeti/orang pendak etc..implying something normal in any sense of the word.?
And..if they are normal biological animals, seen over multiple continents, for hundreds of years, why can none be shot or captured.
Other than bipedal like monsters, can you tell me any other terrestial organism which shares similar morphology over diverse areas of the globe, and also has the ability to not be found or killed...for hundreds of years..?
Because if you believe this is a credible scenario, before you go down that road, you have to establish that such a thing is possible.
I have no idea what yowies are..
I have given up caring..I have always loved mysteries..
And monster bipedal beasties are a mystery.
Fred..we have had this discussion many times before here, if you trawl through the posts you will find it..so we end up repeating the same things ad nauseum.
Believe what ever you want to believe..

Cheers


Mike

[Fred Tobin]

Thanks for the reply, Mike.
I shall indeed trawl.

I have no idea what yowies are..
I have given up caring..I have always loved mysteries..
And monster bipedal beasties are a mystery.

Refreshingly honest.

believe whatever you want to believe

Well I accept that yowies et al are not impossible, but based on the evidence or lack thereof ( for the paranormal as well), I must come to the conclusion that they are unlikely. Not impossible, just unlikely.
Particularly when combined with paranormal abilities.

Note to SAB 8;
Yes I am aware of multiverse hypothesis, but I am not aware of any part of that hypothesis that allows for organisms to flit between them. It would make for a very long equation.
Occum's razor?

This Mike, is the view also of science. Note; I do not say mainstream or such like. There is no mainstream, or fringe science, or bad science. There is only science. Bad science and the rest simply isn't science, so it is pointless describing it as such.

Nowhere is it about belief.

Anyway, I don't think there is much point covering this ground if it has been before.

[Mike Williams]

Howdy Rastus

Im sorry but I dont know how you know what the worlds scientists have been up to both now and in the past in regards to any studies or research carried out. Are you the all seeing eye?

No one is claiming god like knowedge of what the worlds scientists have done in the past in regards to weird stuff.
What the post was referring to was the very small amounts of "research" by scientists..that is known and in the public domain.
We obviously cannot talk about scientific research that is not known.

People keep repeating the same questions as in the above quoted passage for example but dont stop to think that one person walking in the forest and conducting a search is actually someones attempt at finding evidence and conducting research.

Fair point..but that has little to do with the posts assertion about the small amounts of scientists doing research into weird stuff...that is in the public domain..
There might be tons of stuff that top secret scientists know...(I would hope there was)
But its mute if we do not learn about it.
Its like trying to argue how many angels can sit on the end of a pin..

For as far as I'm aware there is no University qualification into any Bigfoot, Yowie or any Paranormal activities.

You mean university qualifications that are highly relevent to those fields.
Sure there are.
For the bipedal beasties anthropology would be at the top of the list.
For paranormal activities, parapsychology.

We dont know what every scientist in the world has studied and when.

Correct.So we will stick to what little we do know.

Just because most people here dont have the grand titles it doesnt make their research any less valid.

No, but the point is that if more scientists/money were involved in these fields, it could possibly make things alot easier and more understandable.
It might make many fields more palatable to "joe Public".Money would help publicise our "work".
On a side not..the Australian Sceptics were given about $1 Million a few years ago from a will/donation.
Damn..

Having said that one can research all they want until the cows come home but until confirmation through direct tangible evidence occurs then this phenomena is only hearsay and will be treated as such by most in society.

Sure..thats why we need more scientists/money devoted to some of the fringe subjects.

No good complaining about lack of " legitimate" studies either, for I'm sure everyone who does any form of research considers it legitimate.

Of course people have that view of their own "research".
One of the best web sites dealing with scientists and fringe subjects is
http://www.scientificexploration.org/
And for a movie version of a very funny book that dealt with the real US government program into psychic powers..you cannot go past..
Men Who Stare At Goats.

[SAB 8]

I`m sorry but I dont know how you know what the worlds scientists have been up to both now and in the past in regards to any studies or research carried out. Are you the all seeing eye? People keep repeating the same questions as in the above quoted passage for example but dont stop to think that one person walking in the forest and conducting a search is actually someones attempt at finding evidence and conducting research. It doesnt have to be 10 scientists, 20 or 100 all backed by a Phd's and big dollars from large conglomerates or government grants, it is also average Joe conducting his own search for evidence that is just as valid as what any scientist could do. For as far as I'm aware there is no University qualification into any Bigfoot, Yowie or any Paranormal activities. People without fancy letters to their name can also discover things.
So for you to say there has been no studies is downright wrong. We dont know what every scientist in the world has studied and when. Doc Scream with his idea's and beliefs is studying this phenomena in his own way no matter how hard it is for some people ( myself included) to see where he he is coming from. That is still study / research. Dean and the team searches as well. That is study. Read back through the forums about people going on expeditions. Thats study. You see my point? Just because most people here dont have the grand titles it doesnt make their research any less valid.

Rastus it may pay to take the effort to read all the postings on this thread before you start making accusations left right and centre. Firstly I have NEVER said anything about there being a problem with non-academic persons studying the subject. Where you came up with that idea is a mystery to me. I myself am in this category so why would I be critical of your average joe blow studying it. I would be criticising myself if that was the case!!! Does that make sense to you? In regards to Doc Scream I was trying to defend him from Freddy`s ridicule. As I said - before you criticise people make the effort to read the entire thread!!! My paragraph about lack of scientific research into the Yowie phenomenon was a direct response to Fred`s previous comments. Thats why I quoted him above the paragraph I wrote!!!

Read back through the forums about people going on expeditions.

I have been following this website since it first came on the web. I have read every post and thread on this website. I have conducted my own research (yes amateur unscientific weekend research believe it or not), had my own encounter, and presented my own ‘possible’ evidence. I have interviewed and had discussion with witnesses who have claimed to have encountered the Yowie. Mate, I think its you who should be reading back through previous postings!

So for you to say there has been no studies is downright wrong.

I`m talking about established scientific organisations or scientists employed by established organisations. I was not discussing AYR or people like myself. I fully support fellow enthusiasts and organisations like AYR. Why would I be critical of them?????? Your barking up the wrong tree mate? I didn`t say there has been no studies I asked where are the studies – BY SCIENTIFIC ORGANISATIONS eg. CSIRO? Unfortunately the greater general public are not going to believe this phenomenon is real until the scientific community says it`s real! That`s just the way it is. I wish it wasn`t, but it is. I am fortunate enough to have access to a vast number of academic journal databases and have spent substantial time searching these databases for articles and/or reports on studies into the Yowie phenomenon. I am yet to come across anything. If I am wrong than please provide me a link to a study you are aware of. I would be estatic if I am wrong! If you want to criticize me than do so with something to back it up!

I'd like to throw in my opinion on this one. Science is funded by either the government or private industry. Unless you have a wealthy benefactor willing to bankroll your investigations, then you will most likely never see any real research into cryptids. Why? Because there isn't any money in it. I've said this before in a different thread, but it's the same message: Science for science's sake is a rare commodity and most likely only done by researchers in their spare time, as 'work' time is needed to do the research that earns your bread and butter (as you know, there isn't much of a living to be made from cryptozoology).
Also, name one big business who would be willing to put up money to fund research into something that is really still considered to be very doubtful as to whether the creatures we seek even EXIST and CAN be researched. They know they could be held up to ridicule and nobody wants negative publicity, do they? It's a catch 22 and therefore a high risk proposition. Think of Dan Aykroyd's character in the movie "Gosbusters" who says: "I've worked in the private sector - they expect results" This sums it up perfectly: you may think you have found something but unless anyone else will believe you, your are out of luck and without a concrete result to show funding bodies, well, good luck with that!
And 'they' may rubbish the results you have come up with because their boss has told them "Say anything and you are out of here" We are NOT allowed to make ANY public comment unless it goes through Communications first, and that is about as likely to happen as your dog learning to speak Esperanto and taking up public speaking.

I agree totally Shazzoir. Good points! Funding reasons in conjunction with ridicule and the loss of credibility are probably the main factors that keep scientific organisations away from the subject. My whole point of that paragraph was to highlight that established scientific organisations do not study the phenomena and that sceptics cannot suggest or claim that the yowie phenomenon is not real based on the fact that the scientific community does not give the phenomenon credibility. How can they talk with authority on the subject if they haven`t even studied it. I wasn`t trying to give in-depth views as to why the scientific community does not study the Yowie phenomena I was just highlighting to Fred that they don`t hence he cannot use them as support for his beliefs

Yes I am aware of multiverse hypothesis, but I am not aware of any part of that hypothesis that allows for organisms to flit between them. It would make for a very long equation.
Occum's razor?

I didn`t say it was in the Multiverse hypothesis stickman! It was my own extension Fred. If multiuniverses can exist than why is it such a huge leap to hypothesis that other lifeforms may exist in dual dimensions? The Universe and the possibilities it contains are only as small as the mind that perceives it!

The moment that you chose to resort to hurling invective and personal abuse was the moment that you removed yourself from this debate.

It is a shame you don`t follow your own advice. You didn`t seem to have any problem with ridiculing Doctor Screams views yet you get all sooky when I ridicule yours. Hypocrite!
Respect needs to be earned Fred. When you start making worthy comments instead of playing ARMCHAIR CYNIC I will pay you the respect you desire!

[Fred Tobin]

SAB 8

I have a couple of requests.

You have accused me of Ridiculing Dr. Scream.

In regards to Doc Scream I was trying to defend him from Freddy`s ridicule.

Where have I ridiculed anyone? I question certain propositions, and what is wrong with that? Why do you feel the need to get very personal and hurl abuse at me?
How would you react if I did the same?
I learned long ago that this is counterproductive in the extreme.
Particularly if completely uncalled for and unnecessary.

Where is the ridicule in this passage?

Do you really think that this approach is going to endear the yowie community to anyone?
It is marginal enough without the need for the added er...., elements.

The er..., ? I write how I speak. Sorry if this offends you.

You accuse me of hypocrisy. All I have offered here is rational debate . You have chosen to go down a different path.

I wonder does anyone else think this treatment less than helpful? Tell me SAB 8 , what do you consider to be a worthy comment? One that you already believe in?
The path of learning sometimes requires painful paradigm shifts, often from both sides of a debate.

As you have removed yourself from this one, I hope the next one is more rewarding for you.

Unless that is, you can defend your position in a civilized debate. That being the case, what exactly is your position on hyper-dimensionality? And how do you propose it occurs. By what process does an organism (or entity, bearing in mind that you will need to provide evidence for an "entity) cross the "barrier" between alternate realities? Is there anything else that can do this? What is the power source for such an event? What are the consequences for the fabric of space/time? What if this occurred with an anti-universe?

Or is there a simpler explanation?

All I ask is that you address these issues in a mature fashion.
If you cannot, or will not, then please, don't.

[forestguy]

Do we actually have any mods? Could all this s#@t please be moved to its own thread...

[Jo Blose]

Every post on this thread is on topic, referring back to Doc Scream's view of the Yowie.

[forestguy]

Every post on this thread is on topic, referring back to Doc Scream's view of the Yowie.

I started the thread, it was about leaving temptation devices/treats, loosely based on his suggestion in an earlier thread.

Multiverse theories, scientific legitimacy, and Straw Man vs. Special Pleading are all probably worth discussion, but it's a stretch to say they're all on-topic for this thread, and can probably be discussed without the "you said, I said".

[SAB 8]

Apologies Forestguy.... don`t stress it anymore mate its all over anyway....

[forestguy]

No worries mate - why don't you start a multiverse theory anyway, somewhere to put all the links etc together in one spot.

[SAB 8]

Nah mate its all good. If truth be known I`m well and truly all multiversed out!