Yowiehunters Forum

Aaargh!

Thanks, Mike, for all the questions. My little research project is becoming massive ...

If anyone has any more questions or issues with the flesh and blood hypothesis then, by all means, toss it on the pile. I will try to be as comprehensive as possible - bringing together a whole assortment of different disciplines while working my way through the history of the world.

If I am unable to prove the likelihood of Yowies being flesh and blood to my own satisfaction at least then I'll walk away... I don't want to be chasing that which is impossible to grasp.

Back to the books...

The only problem I have with the flesh and blood hypothesis is the fact that we don't have a body. Dead or alive!
I would have thought that over the years, one might have turned up somewhere.
I realise that people have stated that bodies have turned up and that the 'authorities' have taken it away, never to be heard from again, but that doesn't wash with me. If I found a dead yowie lying somewhere, I would probably tell the 'authorities' as well, but not before I take a thousand pictures and measurements and samples of hair, blood, etc...
It just seems odd that the people who have reported seeing a dead body haven't done that themselves.
The only reason I think that the yowie would be f & b is because the paranormal reports just don't seem to be paranormal to me.

I always hear that all of the animals around, including the crickets, go silent. To me, that is a natural occurance in the bush whenever I interupt them. For example: the next time you are hearing the wildlife in the bush at night, stay still for a couple of minutes and then run towards the sound and stop suddenly. Most of the time, the entire area will go silent for a short time and then continue when they realise that there is no danger present.

Also, with the 'nameless dread' that I hear of so often, that doesn't happen only when a yowie is present, it happens when any large predator is present. I have heard of the nameless dread by people in Africa who suddenly feel it when there is a lion around but can't see it. I have heard of it by people who walk on Komodo island and there is a Komodo dragon stalking them nearby but can't see anything. I don't know what causes the human body to pick up on such things, but I am sure there is a reasonable explanation for it.
I don't know the reason for deja vu, but just about everyone I know has experienced it at sometime during their life.

My opinion of the nameless dread is that it is just a sudden feeling of fear and nothing else. The same feeling one might get if they are walking down a dark alley and a lunatic jumps out in front of them with a gun trying to rob them.
I have no scientific proof of this as I am not a scientist, but if you look up reports of people being stalked by any large predator, you will find that it is quite common.

I am not to fond of people answering questions with more questions and that is what I think of the paranormal side of the yowie. People cannot answer questions about what they do not know, but implying that something has paranormal 'powers' is not a way to answer those questions.

Many animals in the world (including humans) have certain attributes and skills that nothing else on the planet can do but that doesn't mean they are paranormally gifted. I can't make myself disappear the same way that Kriss Angel does, but that doesn't mean that he is paranormal in anyway. It just means that he knows how to do something that I cannot explain...... yet.

The only way we are going to answer these questions properly is if we have a specimen to examine. Until that time comes, we just have to acknowledge everyones opinions and take them into account. Trev

Q. What is paranormal about not being able to locate the source of a low (possibly infrasound) growl at night in a presumably forested mountain environment? That it stumped even doctorscream speaks volumes.

A. It wasn't at night - it was dusk. B. It wasn't a forested mountain environment, it was a small nature reserve in a built up area alongside a primary school with housing all around and a creek flowing through. The creek worked it's way in from a forested national park area via storm water pipes. It was the location of a number of yowie sightings by school children. C. Infra sound isn't what I deem to be 'paranormal' by any definition, but the way I perceived it is what I found unusual. I was candidly seeking the opinion of another researcher, and that it stumped doctorscream speaks nothing.

As comprehensive as it is, the catalogue of cases in Healy and Cropper's book, isn't the only catalogue of Australian cases. Reports are coming in all the time and they were restricted in how many cases they could include. I know a few of those cases they do talk about though, evolved after the reports for the book were obtained, in ways which cast a distinctive paranormal shadow over the proceedings.

If a yowie witness is asleep at night and were to dream of a yowie outside their window on all fours on the front lawn and then the next morning goes onto the front lawn and finds four impressions in that same area of lawn, two of which appear to be knuckle impressions, and the neighbour across the road comments on seeing an unusual ball of white light in the witness's front yard during that same night, how well does that sit? What about a yowie witness not only being visited by yowie creatures, but also being visited by reptilian creatures? Or the yowie witness who is asleep and dreams of being part of an initiation in a clan of yowies where during the dream sequence an elder yowie smears a line of mud over the witness's palm. The following morning the witness awakes to find a thick smear of mud on the same palm as in the dream. Keeping in mind that witness has no history of sleepwalking, the house was fully locked that night, and that witness bathed thoroughly the night before retiring to bed.

Granted those examples are each subjective, but they are the tip of the iceberg. Another family I talked with about a nuisance yowie at a very rural property they had just moved on to, had nothing paranormal to say of the creature itself per-se, (aside from growls with no distinct source in open paddock areas) but at the same time, a number of the family members had started seeing a distinctive ghost inside their house the same time they became aware they had a regular hairy trespasser. Some people would say a coincidence, but multiple sightings of a ghost by the same multiple people having multiple sightings of a yowie all at the same time and in an environment they are all unaccustomed to, is problematic.

When I first started researching this seriously, I actually thought I may have been researching some sociological phenomenon. I've since fielded a number of curve balls. I can honestly say, I don't know what a yowie is but I do know it can have a real impact on people and a real impact on our environment. It can leave physical evidence and it can be photographed.

Those are very interesting examples that you cite, Joe. I like to put my trust in the sincerity of people but without the addition of "solid" supporting evidence their value is only as anecdotal - i.e. good campfire stories.

We really need to start thinking like crime scene investigators - document everything! More photos, more questions rather than less.

Were the impressions on the lawn photographed or even seen by more than one person?

Did the neighbour capture the ball of light on film? Did anymore neighbours happen to see it? Did the neighbour go to investigate? If not why not?

Did the person waking with mud on his palm take a pic before washing his hand? Did he keep any of the mud to compare with samples of soil taken elsewhere? Can his story be verified by any other people?

Some things will remain a mystery but we need to be sure that we have recorded and documented as much supporting evidence as possible if we are to approach the truth in these matters.

hey joe, you dont need a history of sleepwalking to start sleepwalking. it just takes something emotional, stressfull, or traumatic to happen in your life to trigger it off. i slept walk on and off when i had a really grumpy teacher in school, who scared me crapless, and the things i would get up too at night, thats another story, but i did wake up with strange implements and soiled hands.

The problem is as you rightly say, it's anecdotal. The majority of witnesses aren't concerned about preserving evidence or thinking like crime scene investigators. With a Police crime scene, the Police are usually at the scene within minutes, taking control, preserving evidence, photographing, taking swabs, fingerprinting, and taking statements. Furthermore, with serious crimes or serious traffic accidents, Police are often notified by someone with the presence of mind to do so, before vital evidence is lost.

Yowie witnesses are often in a class of their own. The example in Healy and Cropper's book where young Aaron Carmichael was driving and a yowie supposedly stepped out in front of him and he hit something, is a case in point. Dean wasn't quite quick enough before mud and what looked like hair was blasted off the motor vehicle with a water pressure blaster. Who can ever be truly sure what he hit?

As a yowie researcher, the best you can often do is take the report, ask as many pertinent questions as possible, and attempt to obtain evidence, but ultimately it boils down to the researcher having the guts to explore these areas by oneself and at night. It's when you do your own research and put yourself in the position of a possible witness, that things either happen or don't happen, that helps shed light on the witness's report.

This is when you get to hear tree banging, unusual growls or snorts, and more often than not, the sound of what seems to be a person walking towards you. It is incredibly unerving to be in a field of short grass and to hear footsteps approaching, that stop when you look in the direction of the sound, and then start up again when you've finished looking and look away. The question has often entered my mind as to whether the sound is originating somewhere else and is 'thrown' indeed like ventriloquism, or something is right in front of you which your eyes aren't able to perceive.

I won't go into the stranger things I've experienced in the field, but getting back to witnesses, I have a collection of reports where the witness states they were looking at a yowie and it fades away before their very eyes, or they were looking at it and they realise it is transparent and they can see right through it.

There was a time when I would have scoffed at such reports but nothing will serve you better than experience. The difficulty is pulling yourself out of the experience to view it with objectivity and then regaining your composure to attempt to gather evidence.

Kelleher, C.A. & Knapp, G. (2005) “Hunt for the Skinwalker: Science confronts the Unexplained at a Remote Ranch in Utah” Pocket Books, New York.

“It is a textbook example of how scraps of information can be weaved into a rich tapestry of nonsense and hyperbole.” (p 199)

The authors were commenting on the internet and media hype generated by this project but it could just as well apply to their own efforts to sensationalise the National Institute for Discovery Science (NIDS) investigation into episodes of high strangeness at the Skinwalker Ranch, Utah.

The anecdotal evidence suggests that the ranch was the focus of intense intersecting phenomena - UFOs, orbs, lights, cattle mutilations, strange animals, haunting, and poltergeist activity - between 1994 and 2004. “Which particular research data from the Utah ranch does one have to discard in order to fit the rest into a tidy box?” (p 207) the authors ponder.

Answer: What research data? The stories are impressive but the objective data (or rather the lack thereof) is virtually glossed over. Blink and you’ll miss the following:

“By the end of 1997, no scientifically useful data had yet been obtained at the ranch” (p 186) and finally “Throughout the years, the surveillance cameras had continued recording data… we managed to obtain no sustained evidence of anomalous phenomena.” (p 193).

My initial excitement upon opening “Hunt for the Skinwalkers” quickly diminished as I discovered science had given way to storytelling. Halfway through I was pulling my hair out in frustration and by the end I had descended into despair at the lack of scientific evidence.

I am the kind of person who prefers to examine the evidence for myself before reaching any conclusions but Kelleher & Knapp simply provide no objective evidence of any kind. No video stills, no photos, no detail in the EMF readings. Nothing. Only stories…

The authors even used more anecdotal evidence (stories) of similar cases elsewhere as support for their own anecdotal evidence (stories) of what was allegedly occurring at that remote ranch. There was even an example of semantic skulduggery - an attempt to lead the reader to the authors’ predetermined conclusion - when discussing the origins of an unusual odour. To claim that it emanated from an invisible entity was a stretch too far even for these authors.

Overall, I was extremely disappointed in the “Hunt for the Skinwalkers”. It may be a good read for collectors of unusual stories but even for the semi-serious researcher it just has nothing to offer.

Sorry, Big Cats, but this book provides a valuable lesson in the dangers of accepting things at face value. If understanding of unusual phenomenon is based on purely anecdotal evidence then all manner of bizarre speculation is permissible. The next step is claiming to be on the NSA’s speed-dial…

Hey Nightwalker...I found the book a let down in that most of the "information" was online or in magazines before anyway.

but this book provides a valuable lesson in the dangers of accepting things at face value. If understanding of unusual phenomenon is based on purely anecdotal evidence then all manner of bizarre speculation is permissible

Exactly....But...we... all have a propensity sometimes to do that !.....
Many weird subjects(most)are based around interested people basing their "understanding" just on anecdotal reports...
With transient/liminal phenomena we often dont have any other choice do we.?
Regarding the ranch....they tried to rush back whenever something odd was happening..bit late guys..their instruments failed at the wrong moment etc..
They should have been based there period..and waited..
I really like his other book "Brain Trust" which deals with mad cow disease/kuru etc..
http://www.amazon.com/Brain-Trust-Conne ... 193&sr=1-1

The next step is claiming to be on the NSA’s speed-dial…

Mike

Yep thats the bit that did for me ( NSA's speed dial )...alllriighteeee then, I was speechless, and anything i could say would sound clinical and straight out of the DSM IV manual....sorry

cheers

PS: DSM IV
The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) is published by the American Psychiatric Association and provides diagnostic criteria for mental disorders. It is used in the United States, Australia and in varying degrees around the world, by clinicians, researchers, psychiatric drug regulation agencies, health insurance companies, pharmaceutical companies and of course Yowie Research Forums

Topper, if you have a newsletter, I'd like to subscribe LOL

Kind regards,
Shazz

PS. Getting any rough weather out of Hamish up there?

Hi Night Walker

Your response surprises me!

I am very objective in the way I examine things. I have to be in my job and I thought the book was excellent. It expanded my mind.

When we are measuring things with physics from this plane of reality, I am sure that there will inevitably be confounding variables during these sorts of measurements, as was encountered in the Skinwalker investigations. One would expect this.

On the storytelling level, I thought that was the best part. It made the book interesting.

Big Cats

Big Cats - my work also requires a great deal of objectivity (especially with report writing). It would be great to compare notes over a beer someday. However, I encourage you to re-read “Skinwalker” with your work goggles on - there is very little objectivity in it whatsoever.

“When I first set foot on the ranch I had the unmistakable feeling that something was not quite right. Things were not what they seemed.” (p 91). Is Kelleher a biochemist or is he Uri Geller in disguise?

The events that are alleged to have transpired are described in the narrative form - which makes for entertaining reading as it sensationalised the story but is poor for providing any sort of objective basis for the reader to form his/her own opinion. By employing this approach, the authors are implying that this is the way it happened and everyone who was there is in 100% agreement. Of course, this is NEVER the case…

Eyewitness accounts, even of very common incidents like car accidents, usually show quite a marked deviation from one another due to differences in spatial positioning, what was individually focused upon, state of mind, various distractions, etc. For high strangeness events there should be notable discrepancies between various participant descriptions yet this is overlooked by the singular narrative style which focuses solely on the story.

Taking routine steps to verify the statements and events would have gone a long way to giving the story credibility. Instead, nothing but the singular story is provided. The authors seem to go out of their way NOT to confirm any of the events with anything objective. Friends, family, and assorted others are conspicuously NOT given an independent voice to confirm events, there are NO photos (not even of the aftermath of events), NO video stills, NO plaster casts, NO sketches, NO diagrams.

This is highly suspicious especially from a book which promotes itself as “Science Confronts the Unexplained”. Are we meant to simply take Kelleher’s word for it because he is a scientist? He, of all people, should know better than that…

The Gormans are present in almost all the events described and in many of the events they are the ONLY ones present. Significantly, Tom Gorman was the only one to see a figure crawling out of some sort of one-dimensional hole (the authors brag about having access to a private jet yet have only 1 set of IR binoculars?!? Go figure). Thus it is important for the authors to stress the reliability of the family:

“The Gormans are rock-solid, firmly grounded, honest people. There is no hint in their background of anything shady or questionable.” (p210). Yet there are discrepancies - particularly as to why they moved to Utah in the first place:

“They had escaped the frying pan of small-town gossip” (p 25), “the small-town sniping and gossip that they so loathed in New Mexico” (p12), and to “get away from the busybodies and closed community that keep prying into their lives.” (sorry - I lost the page for that one).

Something is just not right here…

If the events described at the Skinwalker Ranch actually happened it would be a far more interesting and informative read by simply providing a basic forensic account - various eyewitness statements and sketches, photos of the events and aftermath (damage, etc) - instead of this sensational and unverified singular story.

“I personally witnessed the shooting of a large catlike animal from a tree. I was forty to fifty yards away and am certain the bullet hit its target. I was just a few yards away when an unknown doglike animal weighing an estimated 400 pounds was pierced by bullets fired by an experienced marksman, yet no body and no blood were found after both of these incidents. The only physical evidence was a single claw mark left in the snow.” (p 209). How about shooting any of those sequences with a camera?!? Aaargh! It is all so infuriating…

The distinct lack of any form of objective evidence is highly suspicious and a profit-motive for the authors and the Gormans cannot be ruled out. The whole project reeks of a viral marketing campaign for an upcoming movie (promoted as being based on a true story, no doubt). Don’t forget that “The Blair Witch Project” initially fooled quite a few people into thinking it was real but they at least displayed fictional evidence on their website.

However, THERE IS SIMPLY NO EVIDENCE HERE - “we managed to obtain no sustained evidence of anomalous phenomena.” (p 193). Perhaps that is why no evidence was presented by the authors.

Although not specifically about crypto zoology, “Skinwalker” is exactly the kind of over sensationalised, unsupported subjective claptrap that needs to be weeded out of the field if we are to make any progress.

On the flipside, I would be interested to hear how you considered this book to have expanded your mind, Big Cats. Please re-read it objectively and get back to me. I am furious that my hard-earned dollars went to these spindoctors and that I lost several hours of my life reading and discussing it…

Hi Night Walker

No Comment. You are entitled to your opinion as I am to mine.

Big Cats

Nah Shazz
No Hamish weather up here, we are getting our usual " knockem downs" storms, which come at the end of our wet season...that means dry season will be here soon and that means COOL weather and some hominid hunting on the cards, most yowie activity up here seems to occur in the dry season.
I shouldn't make light of mental illness issues,

cheers

topender wrote:Nah Shazz
No Hamish weather up here, we are getting our usual " knockem downs" storms, which come at the end of our wet season...that means dry season will be here soon and that means COOL weather and some hominid hunting on the cards, most yowie activity up here seems to occur in the dry season.
I shouldn't make light of mental illness issues,

cheers

half ya luck topender, a wet season now that sounds like a novel idea, in victoria we have a hot dry season and a cold dry season. send us some of that northern juice our way if ya dont mind.

Night Walker wrote:Although not specifically about crypto zoology, “Skinwalker” is exactly the kind of over sensationalised, unsupported subjective claptrap that needs to be weeded out of the field if we are to make any progress.

On the flipside, I would be interested to hear how you considered this book to have expanded your mind, Big Cats. Please re-read it objectively and get back to me. I am furious that my hard-earned dollars went to these spindoctors and that I lost several hours of my life reading and discussing it…

Thanks for the feedback NW.

By the sounds of it you've just saved me from making a questionable purchase.

Cheers.

So far, in summary:

The vast majority of Yowie reports contain only anecdotal evidence - the least reliable form of evidence. Objective physical evidence - footprint casts, scat, photos, etc - are much rarer but not impossible to acquire which suggests that the phenomenon is real enough, at least it is for some of us, to warrant serious investigation. As I stated most eloquently earlier in this thread: “If it walks, eats, sh*ts, and sleeps then it is REAL.”

After examining hundreds of published Yowie encounters only 2 could be considered to be in any way paranormal - the Wilcannia case which involved high strangeness events similar to “Skinwalker” and a report of Yowie eye shine which seemed to be illuminated from within - and neither are supported by any physical evidence. Healy’s claim that “if we reject everything about the yowie which smacks of the paranormal we will have to sweep approximately 20% of the accumulated data under the carpet” does not stand up to scrutiny after reports involving nameless dread/potential infrasound are removed. Unfortunately, now it seems every hack reporter/investigator will forever quote this figure in support of their supernatural claims (as they did in “Skinwalker”). I intend on taking Healy to task for this at the first available opportunity…

Researcher Joe Black claims to have experienced some unusual things whilst on the trail of our hairy friend but is so far unwilling to open these up for scrutiny. Furthermore, regarding Healy & Croppers “The Yowie”, Black claims that “a few of those cases they do talk about though, evolved after the reports for the book were obtained, in ways which cast a distinctive paranormal shadow over the proceedings” but without knowing the slightest thing about these developments there is currently nothing that can be said to support or refute this claim.

The only evidence that exists in support of the supernatural/paranormal hypothesis for Yowie/Bigfoot is purely anecdotal - THERE IS NO OBJECTIVE PHYSICAL EVIDENCE. Yet many modern publications are awash with fantastic stories and speculation which grossly distort the true picture. Compared to a recent reprint of Sanderson, I.T.(1961) “Abominable Snowmen: Legend Comes to Life” (overlook the lame title and even lamer cover illustration) it becomes apparent just how far research into this field has declined. Fortunately, there are exceptions. For example, take a look at Muldrum, J. (2006) “Sasquatch: Legend Meets Science” to see (1) how serious research can and is being conducted, and (2) just how far off the pace we are here in Australia.

What can we do about it? None of us have the luxury of being full-time researchers however, it would seem that there are enough of us with an at least casual interest in the subject to combine and coordinate our efforts into some type of systematic search. Many hands make light work but we need to be working in the same direction which is generally not happening at the moment.

So, enough of paranormal ponderings - it is time to get down to some real work, time to acquire more objective physical evidence. In the coming months I will put together a systematic research proposal for the D’Aguilar Ranges north-west of Brisbane - the area between Mt Coot-tha and Mt Mee - and will be seeking interested participants. Much of it will involve a range of in-the-field work (for the action researcher) as well as extensive local library searches (for the armchair researcher). In short - anyone willing and able to contribute can contribute to our collective knowledge.

I welcome any expressions of interest and further ideas for this project. Stay tuned…

Hi Nightwalker..

The vast majority of Yowie reports contain only anecdotal evidence - the least reliable form of evidence. Objective physical evidence - footprint casts, scat, photos, etc - are much rarer but not impossible to acquire

Other than bits of plaster...if the other bits of secondary evidence are not impossible...then why has none of it surfaced.?
The evidence...is in the future..as always..

After examining hundreds of published Yowie encounters only 2 could be considered to be in any way paranormal

You are reading an out of date book.
No..dont buy their latest one.
I dont want to be told how lousy the book is because its just full of anecdotes and speculation...like 99% of books on cryptids.
Its not just the witness reports!!!!...
Anyway..I am looking forward to your upcoming answers..!!!
..

Your 2nd question questioning evidence over the last 500 years is a good one deserving it's own thread.
Thanks, Mike, for all the questions. My little research project is becoming massive ...

does not stand up to scrutiny after reports involving nameless dread/potential infrasound are removed.

And you have decided to remove these reports because of what.?
The infra sound component ..which is believed to associated with the roaring of lions for instance ..is just that.
Its a component of the roar.
Show us some animals that can produce an effect due to sound wave compression/exhalation...(probably requiring a large chest cavity)..that can scare people..without making one sound...
The dread some of us are talking about can be experienced without a sound.
Anecdote warning coming up..
I have experienced the dread just once....with no sound/smell/sensed presence...nothing...
And I fled..the fear effect was bizarre......I have spent hundreds and hundreds of hours/thousands counting transport/sleeping..all over Australia by myself ...and more time than anyone else at night all over the blue mts for the last 8 years.....yet the dread and a couple of bizarre large thumps and sounds are all that I have ever experienced.

I intend on taking Healy to task for this at the first available opportunity…

Great..

Researcher Joe Black claims to have experienced some unusual things whilst on the trail of our hairy friend but is so far unwilling to open these up for scrutiny.

How in gods name, or more to the point...why... is Joe supposed to prove..an anecdote.
From your analysis of the skinwalker book we find.

here are NO photos (not even of the aftermath of events), NO video stills, NO plaster casts, NO sketches, NO diagrams.

The first 2 points are just like the yowie phenomena.. we have some plaster casts(big deal)..
The belief/suggestion that a sketch of an anecdotal description..or diagram of a claimed sighting make anything more "scientific"/reliable/real etc must be tongue in cheek..

The only evidence that exists in support of the supernatural/paranormal hypothesis for Yowie/Bigfoot is purely anecdotal

Sure..just like the f/b beliefs...

THERE IS NO OBJECTIVE PHYSICAL EVIDENCE.

Great..then you can provide the PHYSICAL EVIDENCE that prove your own beliefs that I asked for in my queries.

Yet many modern publications are awash with fantastic stories and speculation which grossly distort the true picture.

You mean like the fantastic stories about monsterous ape like creatures that pop up on several continents on earth for the last 500 years and cannot die..or be captured..sure..
And no...I dont know what the true picture of the phenomena is...I dont know what the phenomena is....but thats just based on 8 years hard work/loads of $$$ ...but none of that counts anyway...right..??

it becomes apparent just how far research into this field has declined.

The majority.. of researchers into these crypids are died in the wool f/b advocates.
If they have let the field decline...then any supposed blame has to rest on their shoulders..
Or will someone try and spin it on to another group...probably..

just how far off the pace we are here in Australia.

Sure..the amazing stills/video footage/dna/skeletons/captured live specimens/fossil lines evidence /bodies etc that keep coming out of the US each year always makes us here in OZ hold our heads in shame... ...

So, enough of paranormal ponderings - it is time to get down to some real work, time to acquire more objective physical evidence.

Good luck... and I do mean it..!!

Mike

Interesting relevant discussion techniques, Mr. Williams. I will have to remember that sarcasm is an accepted tool of debate.

Are you one of Australia's foremost authorities on yowies?
That is a genuine question, and entirely relevant.

Hi Mary..great to see you here..!!

Interesting relevant discussion techniques, Mr. Williams.

Thanks Mary..!!

I will have to remember that sarcasm is an accepted tool of debate.

Sure...you forgot this that quickly.?
Mary...Just refresh your memory and trawl through your own posts..
Rhetorical questions..yes..bit of fun..yes...dont take this thread..or comments to seriously..
As you previously have..
No one else does...
Its all fun..
Anyway...Nightwalker is one of the more articulate members of the board...he knows none of this is personal...I respect his views...the fact that we might not agree on whatever the hairy beasties are..or might be...is neither here nor there to either of us..

Are you one of Australia's foremost authorities on yowies?

See...now you are writing like me..LOL...... sarcasm/irony..whatever...for fun ..
No...there are no experts...just people with opinions based on different experiences/ideas.
How could anyone be an expert in something we cannot prove Mary..LOL ??

That is a genuine question, and entirely relevant.

Sure...and an entirely relevent and genuine answer was given..

In that case mr. Williams, the answer to this question;

.I dont know what the phenomena is....but thats just based on 8 years hard work/loads of $$$ ...but none of that counts anyway...right..??

..is "thats right, it doesn't count."

Hi Mary...fabulous seeing you back again..!!

..is "thats right, it doesn't count."

Not in the eyes of some dear mary...lol

Mike

Thanks Mary..!!

Quote:
I will have to remember that sarcasm is an accepted tool of debate.

Sure...you forgot this that quickly.?

In that case mr. Williams, the answer to this question;

Quote:
.I dont know what the phenomena is....but thats just based on 8 years hard work/loads of $$$ ...but none of that counts anyway...right..??

..is "thats right, it doesn't count."

Do I know what sarcasm is??? ...... NO!!!.......

...... see ..... sarcasm is funny, if not directed personally... ...... Trev

I think its fair to remove the 'nameless dread' phenomenum from paranormal research on the basis its perfectly normal for humans who used to be prey animals to feel fear in the presence of anything we percieve as a threat. I for one have felt this fear in the presence of large herbivores and when i was in africa felt it in a crippling way because it turned out there were several lions hiding in the tall grass above our jeep.

Its not fair to remove infrasound however on the grounds this is a proven paranormal method of obtaining data. I dont believe the Yowie/Bigfoot is paranormal in nature but i could be corrected on this and if people have recovered evidence with that method it shouldnt be discounted. Earlier in the thread doctorscream made some good points before playing the NSA card convincing me he was just an aged hippy who hated the goverment. But they were good points. A dead one has never turned up and we cant discount this evidence. Thousands of people have searched for this creature and no remains have ever been uncovered; therefore by that evidence alone you have to consider either A: The Yowie is incredibly intelligent and hides deliberatly from us, who could blame it. B: The Yowie is a Paranormal Entity and does switch dimensions or whatever or C: It doesnt exist at all.

When you think about it like that those are only the real options you can consider, the beast is no mere animal either way.

I think its fair to remove the 'nameless dread' phenomenum from paranormal research on the basis its perfectly normal for humans who used to be prey animals to feel fear in the presence of anything we percieve as a threat.

And what sense are the humans using to perceive the threat.?
Other than canids..what known prey animals of humans are there in the Australian bush.?

I for one have felt this fear in the presence of large herbivores and when i was in africa felt it in a crippling way because it turned out there were several lions hiding in the tall grass above our jeep.

Good point.I am not sure that lions are herbivores though..if they were.. they would have just been munching on grass and ignored you.

Its not fair to remove infrasound however on the grounds this is a proven paranormal method of obtaining data.

Where has it been used to obtain data relating to paranormal thingys..
Are you are talking about Tandys work.?Which was very restrictive anyway in predictiions of multiple witness sightings/clear "visions" etc.

When you think about it like that those are only the real options you can consider, the beast is no mere animal either way.

You Hit the nail on the head with that one ..

Mr. Williams, If you are going to parody an obvious mistake- herbivores, when obviously this person meant carnivores,
you should proof read you own text to spot anything similar.
You said;

Other than canids..what known prey animals of humans are there in the Australian bush.?

Actually there are quite a few, if you interpret this sentence literally. Kangaroos, wallabies, emus, snakes lizards etc, etc.

Now I know, judging by the context, that you meant to say

..animals that prey on humans..

Perhaps you should be a little more thorough, and spend the extra few moments to proof read.
or I could do it for you, if you find it difficult.

Okay - I appear to have been overly harsh in my assessment of anecdotal evidence. Criticism validated and incorporated.

Important information about physical characteristics, behaviours, and habitat can and have been gleaned eyewitness reports. However, it is still important to evaluate the reliability of that evidence - two witnesses are better than one, ten better than two. We certainly need to be on guard against the unscrupulous types that are attracted to the field thus the importance I place on obtaining objective physical evidence.

Where additional information can be collected then it should be collected - the value of anecdotal reports can be improved with witness sketches and a photographic walk-through of the encounter. In this respect, my assessment of “Skinwalker” was spot-on. For the authors to claim that the study followed the strictest scientific protocols despite being clearly not the case is nothing short of deceptive.

I, for one, would be very interested in reading about the more unusual things researcher Black has experienced. Having little reason to be dishonest and no clear alternate motives it should be assessed as such. Otherwise, as I stated previously, there are very few documented Yowie encounters involving supernatural elements. Certainly less than documented hoaxes.

Infrasound, as the word itself implies, is below the range of human hearing. The vibrations rattle the body and internal organs which can produce nausea, feelings of confusion and terror, as well as optical illusions. That some large predators create infrasound in their vocalisations - roars and growls - is worthy of further investigation. Behaviourally, growling is used in very different situations to roaring and this could well be applicable to the larger Yowie types. That infrasound can be produced naturally within earth movements and certain weather conditions is also worth considering (note for “Skinwalker” fans - the noises reported to come from below the ground could be significant but was largely overlooked by the authors). Research into the effects of infrasound, admittedly, could be better but it does show some promise.

Currently my personal research agenda involves:

* working forward from the Pliocene in an attempt to understand the differing hominid and pongid types, migrational patterns, various environmental influences, etc.

* working back from the current times in order to grasp the Western understanding of the Bigfoot/Yeti phenomenon in relation to media, science, and public perceptions. [Note: that bodies have been found and live specimens have been captured. If legitimate, the question is: What has happened to them? I am still looking into that and do not wish to give further ammunition to conspiracy theorists by speculating.]

* reading a wide range books on the phenomenon.

* scouring through local historical publications in search of relevant but overlooked information.

* active field trips into potential habitat areas. I have yet to obtain any physical evidence outside of some dodgy stick formations but when I do I shall submit it.

However, my interest in the subject has a lower priority than family and work, as it does with the rest of you, so you will have to be patient before you get the opportunity to critique my various projects.

Final points:

(1) Is Healy & Cropper’s (2006) “The Yowie: In Search of Australia’s Bigfoot” considered to be out of date? If so, then please point me in the direction of their latest publication.

(2) Enough of the playful word banter - let’s stay focused on this very important topic.

Hi Mary...famtabulous to see you again..

Mr. Williams, If you are going to parody an obvious mistake- herbivores, when obviously this person meant carnivores,you should proof read you own text to spot anything similar.

Oh Deary me......It was a joke Mary...see the context...read the comment properly..can you see the little moving cartoon man Mary...??
Did you have a humour bypass at some stage before you came here with all your in depth comments on weird phenomena..your amazing insights into any of these subjects etc...
The joyfull ideas and thoughts you bring here to these subjects... See the smiling man again Mary..obviously I am making jokes...obviously...
You take jokes directed at yourself.. seriously...and now dear mary..you are taking jokes not directed at yourself..too seriously...

Actually there are quite a few, if you interpret this sentence literally. Kangaroos, wallabies, emus, snakes lizards etc, etc.

You know...you are dead right..!
Very poor grammer indeed...thank you for pinting that out to me.
I have left the letter "o"out in "pointing" in the above line for you to pounce on Mary.

Perhaps you should be a little more thorough, and spend the extra few moments to proof read.or I could do it for you, if you find it difficult.

I dont need to proof read....I have the very funny/informative/charismatic Mary...with unlimited spare time to trawl through my posts to do it for me.!!


Mike