Equipping for surveillence

[Smokeyr67]

Hi guys, came back here a couple of days ago to ask this question, and got sidetracked by pride - sorry.

Anyhow, I'm of to the US in a few weeks for a wee holiday, and I was thinking of buying some trail cams while I'm there to use when I take my usual winter walks in SEQ.

I've put aside a few gorillas specifically to buy this sort of item (you know, the things that have a huge markup in AUS) and I was thinking of buying 3 pair of trail cams.

I understand than some feel the Yowie has the ability to see in the IR spectrum, and whilst I'm skeptical about this, I want to buy something that has the best chance of successfully capturing an image of our friend., so I'm asking for suggestions.

My wishlist?

(1) Low light capability (passive IR)

(2) Multiple trigger modes (beam and tripwire) + any other you can suggest

(3) Long battery life (at least 8 days)

(4) low noise (aural and electronic)

(5) light weight.

All input will be greatly appreciated,

Smokey

[andrew]

Go look at the cameras from Moreton Bay P/L in Brisbane. Look under Farmcam on the net but talk to them as the website doesn't tell the whole story. They have some interesting options. I have been using these for years for security on a rural property and they are extremely small and work 2 to 6 weeks on one charge and take up to 32000 pics to an internal 2G SD card on one charge, without solar charging. Very reliable and worth more than a casual look.

Easily disguised and weather proof. You can choose various telephoto lenses and you can use up to 60 remote PIR triggers and (soon) remote LED flashlights. That way you can put the camera well away from the target position and use the triggers and flashes to image the target but keep the camera safe. Used by increasing numbers of local and overseas councils, parks and wildlife etc, and obviously security. One config even provides transmission of pictures to your computer or phone via an internal modem (3G network) and they can come with inbuilt solar charging. You can have colour day or BW night cameras.

This is Aussie innovation at a reasonable price. Funny that we always think that overseas has the best, which is not always the case. I have put them under rocks, in hollow logs and other strange places that are not noticed. They emit NO noise whatever and the electrical power consumption is so low that you would get more electrical signal from power lines or commercial radio signals. For some models you can use external mechanical triggers as well - trip lines, pressure pads etc. Check them out.

[NoPolys]

Smokey;

A bit of review... There is a growing body of evidence both empirical and inferrential to indicate certain species are able to see the lower end of the infra red spectrum. I have a report that demonstrates (primarily canids but there were other animals observed in the study) reaction to the 800 nm range lighting used in most "covert" camera trap units. Reconyx ( http://www.reconyx.com/ ) and the study claim a better result from some of the 940+ nm ir illuminators. Past that there is the sound, scent, security and visual challenges from placing cameras in odd and unusual places.

Andrew has a vaild point, I have looked at the Farm Cam units, I used to put together similar units in a prior life... The downside is the size of the frame.... it's hard to compare a 640x480 P with a 3-5 MP frame and difficult to extract information from the fringe visual edges of the typical video frame. It depends on the placement to achieve the same desired outcome.

The other big issue is the portability. Self contained camera traps are a lot easier to move in & out of an area especially when we are talking multiple units. The noise, secuity, lens requirements and cammouflage issues on the other hand are easier to resolve using a video head with the terminal recording and power stuff located some distance away. The current best practice methods indicate at least two (2) cameras per location.

Farm Cam units based on video are great.... as are several of the other branded units on the market. Just be aware of the capabilities and limitations you get with either choice, the outcomes with both types are still available if properly emplaced....

It gets to be a heavy lift issue quickly as you can see.... not just in transporting the equipment (whichever method you choose) but also a budget heavy lift.

I think that just gave you more questions than answers.... so you can see why people spend as much time discussing this issue as they do putting the units in the field

Oh, the study I mentioned above was a university study in that other North American place that isn't the US. I don't know what involvement Reconyx had with the study, if any.

Feel free to PM me (and speaking for andrew without his permission) or Andrew for more in depth information. I'm certain either of us would be happy to help you spend your money!! .

As an aside and totally off the subject..... I would suggest a look at the "spot messenger" you see on the Farm Cam site and consider one of those or similar even before the camera purchase..... it isn't a safe world out there, ca-ca' does occur.

Cheers

Nopolys

[Smokeyr67]

[quote="NoPolys"]Smokey;

A bit of review... There is a growing body of evidence both empirical and inferrential to indicate certain species are able to see the lower end of the infra red spectrum. I have a report that demonstrates (primarily canids but there were other animals observed in the study) reaction to the 800 nm range lighting used in most "covert" camera trap units. Reconyx ( [url]http://www.reconyx.com/[/url] ) and the study claim a better result from some of the 940+ nm ir illuminators. Past that there is the sound, scent, security and visual challenges from placing cameras in odd and unusual places.

Andrew has a vaild point, I have looked at the Farm Cam units, I used to put together similar units in a prior life... The downside is the size of the frame.... it's hard to compare a 640x480 P with a 3-5 MP frame and difficult to extract information from the fringe visual edges of the typical video frame. It depends on the placement to achieve the same desired outcome.

The other big issue is the portability. Self contained camera traps are a lot easier to move in & out of an area especially when we are talking multiple units. The noise, secuity, lens requirements and cammouflage issues on the other hand are easier to resolve using a video head with the terminal recording and power stuff located some distance away. The current best practice methods indicate at least two (2) cameras per location.

Farm Cam units based on video are great.... as are several of the other branded units on the market. Just be aware of the capabilities and limitations you get with either choice, the outcomes with both types are still available if properly emplaced....

It gets to be a heavy lift issue quickly as you can see.... not just in transporting the equipment (whichever method you choose) but also a budget heavy lift.

I think that just gave you more questions than answers.... so you can see why people spend as much time discussing this issue as they do putting the units in the field (lol)

Oh, the study I mentioned above was a university study in that other North American place that isn't the US. I don't know what involvement Reconyx had with the study, if any.

Feel free to PM me (and speaking for andrew without his permission) or Andrew for more in depth information. I'm certain either of us would be happy to help you spend your money!! (jest) .

As an aside and totally off the subject..... I would suggest a look at the "spot messenger" you see on the Farm Cam site and consider one of those or similar even before the camera purchase..... it isn't a safe world out there, ca-ca' does occur.

Cheers

Nopolys[/quote]
Thanks nopolys and Andrew, I'll reply to you properly as soon as my touching the keboard doesnt send me to the top of the post, I hate laptops!

[Pandabear]

I assume some of you here have also heard of things like "The Hoopa Project" in the US, as well as "The Wild Man of Kentuck" video? I heard about it on a radio show that was put onto Youtube. The Youtoob videos included images of the speakers as well as drawings and images of supposed sasquatches. After listening to it, I looked at some stuff on the web about these people's research.

I think it may have been the one called "The Hoopa Project" where they discussed trail cams. After putting trail cams in a location frequented by Bigfoots, the creatures stayed away from the area. On further examination, they found that the trail cams put out a frequency audible to some animals. This was tested and the manufacturer confirmed their results. On more than one occassion, the trail cams have actually resulted in keeping the creatures away from an area, and the speaker on the show actually put that forward for those harassed by bigfoots that putting up one of these cameras would keep them away. So it may not just be SEEING that keeps them away from certain trail cams?

Any thoughts on this guys?(and Gals). Are the trail cams used here from America?

[Nikita]

I can't really answer your question as I'm the last person to answer technical answers, but just talking to guys o/s who do use trail cameras they may have a success rate of 20pics out of 300 showing anything. Usually just deer.

So it seems either they aren't quick enough to pick up the movement or even animals with smaller brains then we imagine our big guy would have must sense something about the camera. Even when the camera is baited it seems to meet with a mixed success.

Now I have a question would your everyday run of the mill digital camera that takes videos also shed out some sort of impulse?

[Reasoned]

Smokey this is a bit "out of the box" but LLBEAN sells a ball cap with built-in LED lights...now I understand you were looking at sophisticated stuff, which I know little about. But I do know Yowies & BF enjoy sneaking up from behind. Having a ball-cap with decent lights you could wear backwards would maybe help?

Sort of forcing them to approach you from the side or directly in front?

Just a thought, trying to help.
The lights are in the brim....tiny but strong. Good for power outages anyways.

[andrew]

I can't really answer your question as I'm the last person to answer technical answers, but just talking to guys o/s who do use trail cameras they may have a success rate of 20pics out of 300 showing anything. Usually just deer.

So it seems either they aren't quick enough to pick up the movement or even animals with smaller brains then we imagine our big guy would have must sense something about the camera. Even when the camera is baited it seems to meet with a mixed success.

Now I have a question would your everyday run of the mill digital camera that takes videos also shed out some sort of impulse?

Everything that has current flowing will generate electric amd magnetic fields. You can block electro magnetic fields from getting out by enclosing the sources in a complete metal shield but that is not always practical. Provided that the electronic flashes are NOT used, the radiation from a digital camera is minute and should not be a problem. You would get more from an led torch.

[Nikita]

Thanks for the answer Andrew, even small amounts is enough to work with my theories. Thanks.

[andrew]

Thanks for the answer Andrew, even small amounts is enough to work with my theories. Thanks.

You and they have more exposure to EM fields from mobile towers, radio and TV transmissions and certainly street power lines and those big high 33kV voltage power lines that cross your area. A grain of sand in your shoe is nothing compared to a pebble. Unfortunately EM fields pervade our world. It doesn't seem to drive the hairy harry's away though. I would not be concerned in the least. It is all relative.

[Smokeyr67]

Andrew,

1. I'm guilty - I assume that getting an item from the US will be cheaper than buying localy, I used to love duty free shopping
2, I'll contact Moreton P/L before commiting to anyone else, they do seem to have some good kit.


No Polys.

Thanks for your input.

I've had some experience with a different version of trail intervention, this time I want to put flashless cams in spots that seem likely - I may have to work with trip wires and remote IR illumination, with sources like thesehttp://www.speedingsltd.co.uk/store/Fir ... od_79.html

[NoPolys]

Smokey;

Finding likely areas is easy.... the trick is to find places where the the local bio can support a thin population of a large apex predator (or group) as well as looking likely. A bit of recon, a bit of records searching, a bit of asking local folks leading questions and a bit of luck will increase your odds dramatically. Makes for more work (sorry !!! ) but the payoff in the success rate will keep you from getting frustrated and discouraged.

I know this may be out of the box a bit... but if you are a handy type, consider rigging PIR sensors into the trigger for your camera(s). The units are not overly expensive and are able to be placed in a wider pattern allowing more time to trigger your imaging device(s). PIR's are supplied as both wired and wireless so you can choose which suits best. Most (modern) cameras (tape, 35mm and digital) that have a remote trigger port can support these without major modification to the camera(s). The downside is power. You need to figure out how to power all of the units for the duration of the installation. As far as illumination.... that is a real question many have pondered for a long time. It's difficult to get repetative photos of a reclusive animal that may be able to see light energy we cannot. If you are looking to make "friends" with said reclusive animals ie, get many photos over a period of time.... scaring them off with large photonic bursts may not be the answer .

I do like the idea of the chemical lighting... for a single use situation requiring a lot of diffused lighting they are difficult to beat. I'm curious how you are going to initiate them.... what is your "crush factor" ??

Currently, my view is the more passive you can be, the greater the odds of getting a photo or video. Passive includes cammouflage technique, lighting, scent, noise and perhaps mild eddy currents..... I'm not too certain about the eddying currents... but pretty certain on the others (the above list is subject to change without notice!!).

If past behaviours reflect future behaviours, we can be pretty comfortable thinking that if we continue trying the same techniques that haven't worked in the last 20 years.... it won't work for the foreseeable future.... I have been told that one of the definitions of a mental illness is using the same process over and over expecting a different outcome.. Just a couple random thoughts....

Good Luck !! I want to see the pictures when you get them!! Including the setup .... Yes, I will most likely try to copy your design and try to replicate your success!!!

Cheers

NoPolys

[Pandabear]

Even when the camera is baited it seems to meet with a mixed success.

Here's an idea. Just a thought. Has anyone ever tried using a recording of a crying child instead of food? Aren't they attracted to children for some reason? Just put the recorder in front of the camera position, turn it up and see what comes along to check out the sound. The sound of the crying child may actually drown out any noises given off by the camera equipment. Has anyone tried that idea?

Of course you'd need an mp3 player with very long life batteries.

[TwoCrows]

Hi Smokey,

I'd suggest Stealthcams. I use the Stealthcam Rouge IR and I also used Moultries. I've got a lot of cameras and like these the best.

I'm here in the US, depending on where you're visiting, you can probably find some good deals. If you visit an area that has a "Cabelas" nearby they often have good sale prices.

[Smokeyr67]

Hi Smokey,

I'd suggest Stealthcams. I use the Stealthcam Rouge IR and I also used Moultries. I've got a lot of cameras and like these the best.

I'm here in the US, depending on where you're visiting, you can probably find some good deals. If you visit an area that has a "Cabelas" nearby they often have good sale prices.

Hi Two Crows.

I'll mostly in WA, a town called Darrington, but I'll be travelling south to LA to catch the flight home. I'm sure that along the way I'll drop into a Cabelas, one must exist near the I5 in either WA or OR (I think I remember one in Bellingham)

BTW, this is my favorite place in the world.http://www.saukrivertradingpost.com/

[Smokeyr67]

Smokey;

Finding likely areas is easy.... the trick is to find places where the the local bio can support a thin population of a large apex predator (or group) as well as looking likely. A bit of recon, a bit of records searching, a bit of asking local folks leading questions and a bit of luck will increase your odds dramatically. Makes for more work (sorry !!! ) but the payoff in the success rate will keep you from getting frustrated and discouraged.

Talking to locals isnt hard work, it's usually just hard on the liver:)

I know this may be out of the box a bit... but if you are a handy type, consider rigging PIR sensors into the trigger for your camera(s). The units are not overly expensive and are able to be placed in a wider pattern allowing more time to trigger your imaging device(s). PIR's are supplied as both wired and wireless so you can choose which suits best. Most (modern) cameras (tape, 35mm and digital) that have a remote trigger port can support these without major modification to the camera(s). The downside is power. You need to figure out how to power all of the units for the duration of the installation.

I'm handy with a soldering iron, but my electronics skills are mid range Dick Smith kit, so I'll have to do a bit of study, but thanks for the idea

As far as illumination.... that is a real question many have pondered for a long time. It's difficult to get repetative photos of a reclusive animal that may be able to see light energy we cannot. If you are looking to make "friends" with said reclusive animals ie, get many photos over a period of time.... scaring them off with large photonic bursts may not be the answer .

Initially I'm just after that one shot that gives me hope, then I'll try and "saturate" a hot spot, hoping for a second shot.

I do like the idea of the chemical lighting... for a single use situation requiring a lot of diffused lighting they are difficult to beat. I'm curious how you are going to initiate them.... what is your "crush factor" ??

I'm not a subtle man, so I'll start with a trip wire and rattrap type trigger. I'm also working on a 380 motor +3.6v lipo solution, but for sticks it slow, for grens I need a lever:)

Currently, my view is the more passive you can be, the greater the odds of getting a photo or video. Passive includes cammouflage technique, lighting, scent, noise and perhaps mild eddy currents..... I'm not too certain about the eddying currents... but pretty certain on the others (the above list is subject to change without notice!!).

If past behaviours reflect future behaviours, we can be pretty comfortable thinking that if we continue trying the same techniques that haven't worked in the last 20 years.... it won't work for the foreseeable future.... I have been told that one of the definitions of a mental illness is using the same process over and over expecting a different outcome.. Just a couple random thoughts....

I agree, with your definition of insanity, but I dont know how to change mine - I like walking in the bush and while I dont expect to have a "Harry and the Hendersons" moment, I'd love to prove to myself that those noises arent skippy on the roids, maybe then the wife will come camping with me (if we can get rid of the kids for a weekend)
[/quote]

Good Luck !! I want to see the pictures when you get them!! Including the setup .... Yes, I will most likely try to copy your design and try to replicate your success!!!

Cheers

NoPolys

[TwoCrows]

Hi Smokey,

I'd suggest Stealthcams. I use the Stealthcam Rouge IR and I also used Moultries. I've got a lot of cameras and like these the best.

I'm here in the US, depending on where you're visiting, you can probably find some good deals. If you visit an area that has a "Cabelas" nearby they often have good sale prices.

Hi Two Crows.

I'll mostly in WA, a town called Darrington, but I'll be travelling south to LA to catch the flight home. I'm sure that along the way I'll drop into a Cabelas, one must exist near the I5 in either WA or OR (I think I remember one in Bellingham)

BTW, this is my favorite place in the world.http://www.saukrivertradingpost.com/

There's one in Lacey, WA not far from Olympia.

I've been to that trading post a few times, it's a great place.

Glad that you reminded me of it, I'll be up in the Pacific NW for a while this year, I'll have to stop in there.

[Smokeyr67]

Hi Smokey,

I'd suggest Stealthcams. I use the Stealthcam Rouge IR and I also used Moultries. I've got a lot of cameras and like these the best.

I'm here in the US, depending on where you're visiting, you can probably find some good deals. If you visit an area that has a "Cabelas" nearby they often have good sale prices.

Hi Two Crows.

I'll mostly in WA, a town called Darrington, but I'll be travelling south to LA to catch the flight home. I'm sure that along the way I'll drop into a Cabelas, one must exist near the I5 in either WA or OR (I think I remember one in Bellingham)

BTW, this is my favorite place in the world.http://www.saukrivertradingpost.com/

There's one in Lacey, WA not far from Olympia.

I've been to that trading post a few times, it's a great place.

Glad that you reminded me of it, I'll be up in the Pacific NW for a while this year, I'll have to stop in there.

Its for sale, $950k, if it came with a residence I'd put in an offer.
It's just a beautiful store, decent range, good staff, and it smells good.