Feral cats being confused?

[PAF]

I know that the theory is going around that they are just overgrown feral versions of domestic cats and I would like to point out my experiences in this area..

I have a cat here at home in Melbourne and it is closing in on 18 years old and had it ever since I was in primary school. It had 2 sets of kittens (5 kittens all up) that were given away as pets to friends and relatives, and then we desexed our cat to stop the production line

After the desexing is when my family bought a large farm in the Heathcote area so we bought 2 new kittens, raised them to full size in Melbourne, and then took them to the Heathcote farm to have as pest control.. when we took them away from Melbourne they were at the size of my permanent domestic cat.

One month after taking them up there, they had (unbelievably) grown much larger, thicker fur, more muscular, longer and bushier tails and gotten to sizes I didnt think domestic (feral for 4 or 5 weeks) cats could get to.

Then these 2 cats had 3 kittens.. they were born already massive as newborns, grew even larger than their parents at full size, with darker fur, and started to look like they belonged in the African jungles.

I was totally freaked out by the size and I would say that with the tail stretched out fully they would have been close to 1m long and weighed roughly 6 or 7, maybe 8kg's. I lured one in with food, lifted it very quickly (to avoid scratching) as it was eating, later lifted a 5kg weight, lifted a 10kg weight, and would say it was somewhere in between.

I know I know, it sounds a bit crazy that I lifted a feral cat but since we were heading over to the farm about once a month, they got used to people and knew that we provide food, so there was a good level of trust and I was recognised by them.

Eventually one kitten (male) was bitten by a snake and died. The parents and the 2 other kittens (one male & one female) vanished without a trace.

I dont know if they can grow even bigger than 80cm to 100cm long, or up to and over 10kg, but if they can then I wouldnt be suprised if its an Australian bred version of a feral cat that can get massive because of its system absorbing Australian food sources, climate, conditions, or whatever else could contribute to extra large size.

[PAF]

Also for the record..

My cat here (18 year old) has always weighed around 3.5kg and the feral (or semi-feral) cat I lifted weighed about double.

The body length was not twice as long, probably only 1.5 times bigger, but the muscularity and length of the tail would increase the measurements for both weight and length compared to a domestic cat.

There are thousands of feral cats in Victoria, and over time if the biggest males bred with the biggest females, and siblings bred with each other, they could get the most out of their genetics and be very very large.

[NoPolys]

PAF;

I think you're being too empirically scientific for the Victorian politicians !!! . (sorry, the voices made me type that! )

Cheers

NoPolys

[PAF]

NoPolys..

Huh?

The realisation that politicians feed the public lies doesnt allow me to follow anything regarding politics in Victoria or even Australia for that matter..

I think you're being too empirically scientific for the Victorian politicians

<-- explain?

[NoPolys]

PAF;

The Victorian Gov't promised to investigate the "Big Cat" mystery...... it's been a political issue for awhile for you folks.

[hillbilly]

Let me get this right.
you had two cats as pets, you took them to the family weekender farm, left them there, and you visit the farm about once a month.
they basically became feral.
they then bred with eachother (or maybe other ferals) and had another three kittens that you are aware of.
you bravely picked up one and it was big n heavy.

WOW, were they eating only rodents/ pests? or was cat food given?

[PAF]

hillbilly..

i dont know if you can call them "semi feral" because they got used to me once a month for about a year or so until they vanished. a neighbour would also go to do some light watering for us but they wouldnt go near him. then again he didnt give them food.

they would see me and my family coming in the car and suddenly a whole gang of cats would sprint towards us from hundreds of metres away knowing that we had food and they wouldnt need to hunt for it.

they would come right up to our feet to get it (strangly wouldnt wrap themselves around our legs unlike domestic cats) and would start eating at our feet. i looked for the biggest one, got behind it, put my hands under and around its ribs, and lifted it about 5cm to 10cm off the ground and very quickly. it just gave me a death stare and started eating again.

again.. i dont know if there is such thing as "semi feral" but if there is, these cats were it and weighed roughly 7kg or so (double of my domestic cat)

they were eating rodents, pests, birds, anything they could kill, maybe snakes, then from us they would get cat food or leftovers from our cooking.. but it seems the stocks dried up because there was a lack of animals after a while so they probably ran off to another area.

ps. i still havnt seen any other feral cats out there around Heathcote other than the ones i took up there and that was around 10 years ago

[hillbilly]

PAF, you might have graduated in Sport Science, and you know your sport stuff, but what you and your family have done with/ to those cats is VERY illegal, and plain STUPID.
You and your family have broken many laws.
The RSPCA would love to hear your story, and the Nat Parks would string you up.
Cruelty, neglect, killing wildlife, the list goes on.
And now, due to neglect, the cats have all gone...FERAL.
There are no emoticons to describe how dumb this action is.
It is retarded.

[PAF]

Well there is a reason why it happened 10 years ago and hasnt continued happening from then until now.. along the lines of what you just posted but I wont go into personal details.

I cant speak for other people but was 14-15 then and didnt know of the laws. If we could turn back the clock to the year 2000 we wouldnt have done it.. meaning we learnt the hard way.

Wouldnt be suprised if the 4 remaining cats we exterminated though..

[hillbilly]

What, it was different in 2000???
No Excuses. Twenty years back, I knew it was wrong to "dump" animals.
that is a victims logic to hide behind bull like that.
If you have f'd up, stand up and be man enough to admit.

Ten years ago, there were four cats. Lets assume that two were female.
One female will have 2 to three litters per year. With 1 to 8 kittens per litter.
So, each female could produce up to 12+ kittens per year.
Oh, but wait. Each year of production of kittens could result in 6+ females, each reaching sexual maturity well within its first year.
Then they produce 12+ kittens per year, and another six/or more females per year.

You will need a calculator.

So, ten years later, just the first two cats have potentially produced 240 kittens. Sure, some may die, but also, some litters will have more kittens.
But in the first year there were possibly 6 females who started their own production of kittens.
Those first year females, over the next nine years will potentially create around 650+ kittens each. But thats nothing.

The kittens from the second year of breeding could number over 140.
Lets say half were female?
70 females having 12 kittens per year is 840. WTF? 840 per year.
If half were female, those 420 females in one year produce 5040 kittens.
Now, if half were female, and they each have 12 kittens per year,...30,240 kittens.

Do you see why it so freakin stoopid to dump pets?

Rant is now over.

EDIT,to add. I actually made a mistake in my second year breeding calculation.The answer is actually 168 kittens. So the final tally should be higher, but I believe I have made the nec point.

[hillbilly]

simplified and more accurate I think..
two females have twelve kittens each in one year.
24 kittens. Half are females. 12 female kittens, plus the first 2 females.
next full breeding year has 14 females producing 12 kittens each. 168 kittens. Half are females=84 females.
Next full breeding year has 84 new females, plus the14 older ones, each having 12 kittens.
1176 kittens. Half are female=588 new females, plus the 98 older ones.
next full breeding year has 686 females each having 12 kittens.
8232 kittens, half are female.
4116 new females, plus the 686 older ones.Each has 12 kittens.
57624 kittens after about five years.

sorry, I just had to do it.

[PAF]

yes i understand

i am sorry and like i said if we could have turned back the clock we wouldnt have done it and learnt our lesson

either way it got taken care of and the 4 cats just vanished.. in the loast 10 years i havnt seen a feral cat anywhere

like i said.. maybe they were captured and removed from the area

[Ozpulse]

There are some big cats out there for sure, I have been spotlighting with Cassidy Uluru in the country nrth of Ayers Rock.
He would point out the eyes once and a while sitting in the scrub near rabbit warrens, you would doubt him at first honestly just by the height that the eyes would be from the ground. Just seemed too big but were definately cat eyes.
The few times we saw them they seemed to hunt in pairs, as there would be 2 sets of eyes on opposite sides of the warren. Only ever saw eyes and shadows at the distance in the spotty though.

[horserider]

Anything is possible in this amazing world. How ever - did the voice of these cats sound different? I mean as they grew larger what happened to their vocals? Because many witnesses who have heard them have likened the voice/meow/growl/snarl to that of a leopard or jaguar ie panther So.. if you wanted to use this example you should try remember if their voices changed too as this could give things a whole new meaning Ill await your reply!! Ciao for now

[Ozpulse]

Was DNA tested, came back as a feral cat.

[PAF]

To say the truth I cant even remember ever hearing them make any noises at all

Sorry

[Nikita]

Was DNA tested, came back as a feral cat.

I remember this it was classed as a major find at the time. But looking closely at the picture you can see the cat is up close to the camera and the man and bike are situated much further back putting all proportions out of the window.


Good find Ozpulse, I'm hopeless I read things and then can never find them again even 2 page articles of research I've had up in other places lol.

[Ruby]

Nikita - you might want to read up on the case.

While there is certainly a slight depth of field issue, there are other photos verifying the length of the cat.

It was a record-making feral cat, and one of the few 'big cat' cases involving the collection and analysis of DNA.

Cheers,

R

[lilfoot]

unless feral cats grow to 30+ kilos then what i saw was no pussy cat.
if i had seen a wallaby, i would have thought wallaby and tried to avoid hitting it . if i had seen a feral cat, i would have thought feral cat and tried to run it down. theres no mistaking what is seen if its at close range, in bright sunlight and you have a secondary witness to back you up.
i have big feral cats walking past the window where i sit now, on the odd arvo, and it doesnt bring out a shocked reaction, just another damn feral. to me a feral cat and a panther like cat are.....well, chalk and cheese

[Nikita]

Nikita - you might want to read up on the case.

While there is certainly a slight depth of field issue, there are other photos verifying the length of the cat.

It was a record-making feral cat, and one of the few 'big cat' cases involving the collection and analysis of DNA.

Cheers,

R

Hi Ruby,

Was this the case where they cut off the cats tail? I remember the photos were very similar to this. If so I did read up on it at the time and had in depth discussions about it with a forum member.

lilfoot I've never seen feral cats here but I've taken photos of prints we found that measured 14 x 14cms and a gap of 75cms between strides. Most often there was wallaby tracks very close obviously being hunted down.

[Ozpulse]

Hey Nikita,
Yes they cut the tail off then apparently dumped the body in a creek as the story goes. the tail was used for DNA testing.
When you think that only the 'stupid' ones would get shot, there must be bigger 'smarter' cats out there!

[PAF]

When you think that only the 'stupid' ones would get shot, there must be bigger 'smarter' cats out there!

does not make sense to me..

just because they are bigger it doesnt mean they are smarter, or doesnt mean that if cats are smarter they will grow to a bigger size

small, big, smart and dumb cats all have the same chances of being shot because they dont have the concept of guns and what they do, and you also dont know when a hunter will cross paths with one

[Nikita]

Thanks Ozpulse, I remember talking in great detail with a member who used to be on here and it was obvious from the start that it was going to be found to be a feral cat.

I believe in both ‘ABCs’ and feral cats of all sizes roaming around but it still comes down to the major point of a feral cat no matter what size is different to an ABC.

[Ruby]

it was obvious from the start that it was going to be found to be a feral cat.

I'd probably disagree with this - it was certainly more *likely*, but never obvious.

The man who shot it didn't know it was a giant feral, neither did anyone else who took into account the estimated weight and size, hence the need for DNA analysis to try and determine exactly what kind of cat it was. It certainly was never clear initially, given its size and weight, that it was feral.

It certainly was an interesting case, and one that set the tone for a science-based discussion about the reality of mega moggies.

R

[Nikita]

Sorry Ruby, to the guy and I that discussed it maybe we put it all together and studied the facts differently to you and we both came to the conclusion feral before the results were released.

Obviously it would have been nice to be found to be a ABC but then the thought of one killed when they would be of limited numbers would have been awful.

[Mike Williams]

But looking closely at the picture you can see the cat is up close to the camera and the man and bike are situated much further back putting all proportions out of the window.

Exactly..!!
That was why none of us rely on that photo for scale..there is none..we relied on the actual shot showing scale with the vertical beam just behind the animal.
I went to the site and looked at all the angles the photos were taken..

Sorry Ruby, to the guy and I that discussed it maybe we put it all together and studied the facts differently to you and we both came to the conclusion feral before the results were released

No need to apologise to Ruby..

studied the facts differently

Interesting terminology......you and your mystery correspondent..read a newspaper..and chatted about it..
But...Ruby went to Melbourne and met Kurt...examined the tail/the photos/interviewed him/spoke to the biologist involved with the tail/looked at the gun..looked at the size of the loads used etc etc..
One person is reading a newspaper..one person is actually studying the facts....
Thats the difference..
Anyone can have an opinion..big deal..but ..everyones "opinions" are not equal...
No one knew the other details like the photo showing scale..the examination by a biologist of the tail..etc etc..
And..this animal was not the largest felis catus shot..we have another larger animal showing scale on the side of a car..
Many people who dont know anything about accepted size ranges of felis catus still think the argument is "they are just feral cats..case closed".
It is a lot murkier than that..
The MT dna came back for f.catus..Yup..
1/This showed the female line of course..it does not show if there was anything (jungle cat etc) odd that crossed from the male line.
2/This test does not show any form of mutation which could possibly explain any gigantism.
3/We have a photo of another felis catus which is larger that the kurt cat..which also shows scale.
4/Obviously..in SOME cases we are dealing with..there is some form of felid which shares the same morphology as felis catus..but appears to be larger than a normal cat.
The "Lithgow Panther"..was a large felis catus..yet gained the nickname "panther"..we are still looking for footage of any "panthers" in OZ that shows rounded ears..
And no..I am not saying all mystery cats in OZ are "just" outsized feral cats..
There are some forms of large fcatus..and..there are the truly large animals that have not been identified..yet..
5/I never caught Kurt lying..not even when i tried to catch him out..he told us repeatedly how scared he had been after it was lying down dead..massive adrenaline dump etc..and the way it moved towards him..hardly the reaction of a fairly tough character..to "just a feral cat".
7/There are no bodies on the table..and the majority of photos show no scale..agreed..100%..crummy photos..move on people..
But..like so much in the cryptid field..lousy photos..no bodies..its all par for the course..
Is there some form of bonus brownie points for people making hundreds of posts per week here on all the topics..


Mike

[Nikita]

My mystery correspondent actually joined the same day as you and I joined 24hrs later. You forget Mike I use to be high up on here before my kids got very sick and I had to leave.

I was privy to a lot of inside information and never read about this case in the newspaper. The other person was also highly regarded and worked with Dean on at least 50% probably more of the research in QLD. It seems though that certain members could not tolerate opposing views and carried on so much making his life a misery on here that he had enough and walked away to continue his own research. I still have some contact with him as we were friends and would often talk about family and life in general, a real shame that he felt he had to leave the forum. He's a major loss to AYR.

I wasn't being a smart ass when replying to Ruby so why the need to post that smilie up?

I never said Kurt lied, or anyone on here lied it was just our informed rational decision that we believed the cat feral and as you've pointed out on the DNA did come back feral as they could not 100% say otherwise.

Yes everyone has different opinions if we all had the same we'd never learn anything so very immature.

Brownie points, so what are you going to try to do? get Dean to put a word count limit up against members now? Obviously the areas we talk about aren't the sort of things you can share with strangers so the community is small and as one member stated in a thread it was nice to see new topics or old ones brought up again as we can go days or longer without anything new, would a dead forum be preferable to you?

It seems you like to try to bait me whenever I question anything, I think you should look for a new activity Mike as all you are doing is slowly showing your true colours to other members. Plus I'm way stronger then you could ever imagine it's not going to work.

[Mike Williams]

I was privy to a lot of inside information and never read about this case in the newspaper.

Pure..fantasy....there was no one here..who could have given you any form of "inside information" other than what they gleaned from a newspaper.Neither Ruby or myself told anyone here what was happening..and we were the only one`s dealing directly with Kurt ..we had an exclusive "deal" with him..there was no one else with access to him/the negatives/the original photos/ etc before we took the story to the media..and there most certainly was not anyone else dealing with him after the media went crazy..he would have just hung up the phone or abused people..

It seems you like to try to bait me whenever I question anything,

Sigh.. more fantasies....
Out of hundreds and hundreds...and hundreds of your posts..I have commented I think..about 3 times...twice now..and once previously when you were getting snarky with other people..
Thats it..sorry..

I think you should look for a new activity Mike as all you are doing is slowly showing your true colours to other members.

With still no hint of the slightest form of self awareness ...your now lecturing other people.
Oh..the..irony..
Yet you dont care how others perceive your own aggressive/rude/seriously weird posts..

Plus I'm way stronger then you could ever imagine it's not going to work.

Yawn..
All I am asking you please is to relax and just act normal like everyone else here...
Thats all .!!
thread closed..anyone can pm if they like