THE HUNTER, THE HOAXER, AND THE BATTLE FOR BIGFOOT

[Daggzy B]

Hi Rusty,

Was thinking about how you described the gliding action of what ever you saw.
This video which is footage from a Flir camera appears to me to have a gliding action also.
The image is a little hard to see but it is there and moves left across the screen from the center left. The image appears around the 46 second mark standing still , and then starts moving left.
http://youtu.be/XMmUizr11G8

[Scarts]

It's a catch 22, Rusty. To find assistance, you need even a shred of decent evidence. To find even a shred of decent evidence, you need assistance. No one wants to assist in an aimless pursuit where there isn't decent evidence to point which direction you're going. As it stands, I'm at the mercy of others here, even for reports.

I may launch my own website project and assemble my own team and my own funding.

[Rusty2]

Hey Daggzy B , it does seem to be gliding doesnt it , I wonder what it is . What made them monitor this area ?

Scarts , the time is now . Finding answers to personal questions takes time and time is ticking away . You could make an infrasonic microphone and monitor a known hotspot for anomalies , you could buy a UV filter and lighting/flash for your camera , you could hire a psychic , you could hire ground penetrating radar .

[wellymon]

IMO too many people upset the apple cart.
Too many people on a research have too may ideas!!! Which comes to the conclusion that they are all too keen looking in the wrong place.
With the wrong idea.

I believe when you see this Hairy one or what ever you see at the time, it is not supposed to be with a group of hunters so to speak.
It happens unexpected for a reason, depending on how silent and stealth that person is in the bush. Just like how the Aboriginals can track and move in the bush without being heard.

I have meet a bloke on here that never posts on Yowie Hunters, I'm kind of understand why....?
Last time I text him on my phone, he was s#@t scared and was never going back to his research site, the Hairy one snuck up on him and gave it to him. Big time.

IMO people like yourself Scarts, sorry mate but you are looking and thinking in the wrong place.
Keep looking in the wrong place but I will never believe in your own scepticism.

They are in the great Australian bush where no-one has ventured, only a lucky few.

I know Rusty

[Searcher]

Wellymon wrote:

Last time I text him on my phone, he was s#@t scared and was never going back to his research site, the Hairy one snuck up on him and gave it to him. Big time.

Welly… Have to agree with the thrust of your thoughts, mate.

Stealth is the Yowie’s middle name and the great Australian bush is his home and backyard. I believe it’s been that way for tens of thousands of years.

With regards to your contact, if you are convinced the frightening encounter is genuine, his number needs to be given to Dean and Paul. It should make for one bloody incredible Audio Report… if he can be convinced to talk about it!

[wellymon]

No sorry Searcher ;(
The fella was a longtime contributor on this forum, but I believe he is sick of the scepticism by the likes of old mate above and beyound.
Such a shame and this has happened too many on here.

Take care and be real champ

[Scarts]

Oh sorry, what's your contribution to yowie research been, Wellymon?

After you've finished drying your eyes from the sadness of having people like me on the forum, here's a few things to consider. Wellymon, you think because some guy told you a story, you automatically assume because he was animated and emotional, the story he told is the story of a flesh and blood animal. Unless you were actually standing beside him when the event transpired, you really don't know, do you? Wellymon, you don't know. You don't have any idea. You accuse me of scepticism, yet your little mate, and many others here, are sceptical of, and don't want to talk about yowie reports where there is a display of a paranormal ability. I'm sorry, but a yowie dematerialising in front of a witness or shapeshifting into a panther is not an example of a yowie being really good at camouflaging or hiding. Half the reports are blatantly of a seemingly paranormal entity, and do you want to do a count of the reliable evidence we have for a flesh and blood yowie? Yep, Wellymon, - none. Nil, zippo, zilch, zero and counting. Nil plus zippo equals - zero.

People who assume make an ass out of u and me. Take the time to get your facts straight.

[VicYowieResearch]

Scarts, where are you located?

[VicYowieResearch]

Scarts, where are you located? I am interested in your ideas regarding the holistic approach.

[sapere aude]

Sapere aud,

You are a breath of fresh air in a stale forum! Unfortunately, your praise for Yowie research over Bigfoot research, is a little over-rated. What has been going on in the USA has most certainly been mirrored here. The majority of contributors to this forum think they are still chasing a flesh and blood creature and it doesn't phase them one little bit, that year after year, despite earnest and valiant attempts, there is always zero conclusive physical proof obtained. Whenever anybody says anything outside of the flesh and blood paradigm, automatically that person is regarded an armchair researcher, skeptic, or acadamic.

Hard to disagree with that and the continual lack of anything indicating such things exist points to it being well and truly faith based. In fact the similarities "imported" from bigfoot research make Yowie research similarly appear as folklore. This has the effect of turning the academic/scientific community away. A shame because there is obviously something happening. Yet the situation where claims not only bypass genuine scrutiny but go to lengths actively avoid it, allows for any number of charlatans and pseudo scientists to thrive. The bigfoot craze in the US offers some good examples of what to avoid for it to be seen as a legitimate endeavour.

Overall there does seem differences (particularly in attitude) that makes Yowie research a little different. There are some good research efforts and whether anyone sees them as convincing or not, are at least put up for comment and are accepting of reasonable criticism, which doesn't seem to happen with bigfoot research where anything other than acceptance can be like challenging a religious dogma.

I would like to see a hollistic approach to yowie research emerge. Afterall, like sightings of UFOs, Aliens, Fairies, and even Santa Claus, sightings of the Yowie will continue. I suggest, a yowie sighting might be a flag for something else going on in a peron's life at a particular time. Many researchers here and in the States only ever concentrate on and stop short on the details of the story and fail to see it as the tip of the iceberg for the bigger picture.

An armchair can also be a state of mind where one is overly clingy to their comfort zone way of thinking.

That's a reasonable pov. In fact, unlike the US where there doesn't really seem to be any consistent native mythology regarding bigfoot (it's hard to find any at all that don't need a lot of imaginative reinterpreting) the aboriginal stories could support this. One theme is that encountering a "yowie" holds great significance for the person who encounters it. So perhaps they understood this phenomena in a far deeper way than most researchers think.

It appears researchers can ignore elements that look overtly mythical or could be seen as spiritual in nature. There can be a big difference between what the traditions of a stone age culture considers "real" (and in which way it might be "real") to what a modern understanding grounded in science/biology with clear distinction between normal/ paranormal might view it. That so much culture and understanding has been lost doesn't help either.

There was a very good sociological paper a while back which puts bigfoot research (in particular) into context IMO. Though the paper wasn't about nor did it mention bigfoot at all, rather modern trends (post WW2) towards secularism in 1st world democracies, it could be relevant ( entitled "The chronic dependance of popular religiosity upon dysfunctional psychosociological conditions" appearing in various journals such as "Evolutionary Psychology"). It was found that populations take on and cling to faith based beliefs (namely religion) and accompanying pseudo science, paranormal explanations in preference to scientific ones etc. in direct correlation to the level of social dysfunction they experience.

Though it doesn't mean that anyone given to such things is personally dysfunctional (can be quite the opposite), only that such things appear to increase amongst societies who face adverse pressures in the way the particular societies operate.

For example, the US was found to have massive levels of dysfunction not seen elsewhere in the 1st world (more what would be expected in developing/3rd world societies) and has a similar large belief in things like bigfoot. Yet the more moderately dysfunctional societies (Aus, Great Britain etc) have far more moderate and less widespread beliefs this way. In the most functional and healthy societies, these things basically don't exist. There does't seem to be many bigfoot claims from Japan or Nordic Europe.

Though there are isn't enough figures regarding this subject and it also doesn't explain why people see/encounter such things. It could support other academic research that does offer at least tentative possibilities.

[Brindabella Ranger]

Interesting view SA. Its always tricky dealing with sociology theories on countries as a whole, especially when religion and psychology is involved. Broad strokes miss finer truths. I seem to remember an Orang Pendek documentary where a researcher in Palembang, Indonesia (a 3rd world country), asked locals in town of their knowledge of the creature and he was laughed at.

[wellymon]

Oh sorry, what's your contribution to yowie research been, Wellymon?

After you've finished drying your eyes from the sadness of having people like me on the forum, here's a few things to consider. Wellymon, you think because some guy told you a story, you automatically assume because he was animated and emotional, the story he told is the story of a flesh and blood animal. Unless you were actually standing beside him when the event transpired, you really don't know, do you? Wellymon, you don't know. You don't have any idea. You accuse me of scepticism, yet your little mate, and many others here, are sceptical of, and don't want to talk about yowie reports where there is a display of a paranormal ability. I'm sorry, but a yowie dematerialising in front of a witness or shapeshifting into a panther is not an example of a yowie being really good at camouflaging or hiding. Half the reports are blatantly of a seemingly paranormal entity, and do you want to do a count of the reliable evidence we have for a flesh and blood yowie? Yep, Wellymon, - none. Nil, zippo, zilch, zero and counting. Nil plus zippo equals - zero.

People who assume make an ass out of u and me. Take the time to get your facts straight.

Ohhh Cheesy Bum Scarts.

There there there, lets bake a cake together

[Scarts]

Wellymon, is that you? I didn't recognise you without your googley eyed avatar! How about I bake you a cake and I try really hard to leave the laxatives out of the cake mix?

[Dean Harrison]

Sadly had to move this Topic to here, as there's some ridiculously immature Posts going on.


DMH

[Scarts]

There's nothing controversial, conjectural, or fringey about discussing all facets of the Yowie and the way we do research. Ironically, this is the most mature topic and thread this board has seen for a long time.

[wellymon]

Sadly had to move this Topic to here, as there's some ridiculously immature Posts going on.


DMH

Haha Dean, Are you guys for real or what...?????? .....!!!!!!!

Immature !!!
Mature!!!

Obviously theories are mistakenly twisted to such a degree that your supposed 'mature' footage of your confrontation with the almighty 'hairy one' has endeavoured to entertain those of phenomenal ' immaturity' by forcing their response to extreme hilarity whilst canoodling from their seats to the floor in fits of laughter!!

[Dean Harrison]

My comment and action was based on the 'HABITUAL MINORITY' of contributors, again, continually attacking each other with snide remarks, rather than the subject matter. I'm quite sure many others would agree.

If there is a Consensus this thread is not toxic, by all means, let me know and I will return it to the main Forum.



DMH

[forestguy]

let me know and I will return it to the main Forum.

Nah, i think it could be argued pretty safely that if you're going to start a thread with Rick Dyer as a key subject, then it probably should have been in this sub forum to start with.

If you want to keep a topic in the main forum then maybe leave out the gear about people's avatars, laxatives, and associated bullshit. Esp when you're trying to encourage reasoned debate.

[Brindabella Ranger]

Agreed. Nothing should ever invoke personal attacks in this forum. We're not in high school. If you can't endure someone respectfully questioning your point of view, put it up or shut up.

[Searcher]

Yep, I agree too. So here’s a serious and respectful question:

Scarts stated in an above post:

“Half the reports are blatantly of a seemingly paranormal entity”

Blatently??? Wow! News to me and I would expect to most others here who have looked at available evidence. Begs the question, though…. If this is true, what about the other 50%? Ah ha… must all be flesh and blood then!

How is it possible to arrive at such a conclusion when there is absolutely ZERO evidence for those figures? Are they plucked out of thin air to support the POV… or just rationalized conjecture? Either way, I’d like to know the basis for this assumption. Please be succinct with the answer.

[Scarts]

I'm not sure what it is you think I've assumed, Searcher? Or are you trying to be clever by throwing sound advice I gave earlier, back in my face?

Why should I be the one doing all the searching? You're the Searcher!

Nicely ask Dean Harrison to put a list together of all the reports accumulated over the years where there was a blatant paranormal element to the report! If Dean isn't able to, I'll ask Paul Cropper or Tony Healy to, or I'll start by listing all the cases I'm referring to, starting from the ones in Paul Cropper and Tony Healy's Yowie book. I take it a list of the reports I'm referring to, is what you're after? Saving that, I can go through all the ones I personally investigated where there was a paranormal element.

Let me know how your search goes.......

[Searcher]

Just the sort of vague answer I’d expected. Completely ignore the question and throw in a spade full of rhetoric. I was assuming you would be able to back up your stated claim withy some facts. Apparently that’s not the case and this doesn’t surprise me at all.

[Scarts]

Searcher, I recommend you read through "The Yowie" by Healy and Cropper. You may be a person who enjoys the thrill of the chase in the great outdoors and actually have no interest in actually finding what you seek, because then the chase and the thrill will be over. Fine. If belief in an undiscovered flesh and blood animal is what you need in your life, then pay no attention to me.

If you have a genuine interest and passion to embrace every facet of the Yowie phenomenon and not just the parts that appeal most to you, then think critically, read widely, and keep an open mind.

I've said everything I need to say for the next six months at least. From this point on, I will remain a member but will only correspond via PMs.

[wellymon]

I've said everything I need to say for the next six months at least. From this point on, I will remain a member but will only correspond via PMs.

Awesome stuff Scarts, please make it longer champ

[Searcher]

Further to some discussion earlier in this thread, I happened to look at a 'Thinker Thunker' video the other day.

While I certainly don't agree with everything Thinker's controversial video analysis style suggests, I did raise my eyebrows at the bit where a group of four alleged Sasquatch appear to travel a great distance in a very small amount of time. Happens around the 4'.40" mark.

Was wondering if Rusty had already checked this out... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRurxAtiLkM

[Rusty2]

That's interesting Searcher , I do like his style , he has an eye for it .

[macquariedave]

Further to some discussion earlier in this thread, I happened to look at a 'Thinker Thunker' video the other day.

While I certainly don't agree with everything Thinker's controversial video analysis style suggests, I did raise my eyebrows at the bit where a group of four alleged Sasquatch appear to travel a great distance in a very small amount of time. Happens around the 4'.40" mark.

Was wondering if Rusty had already checked this out... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRurxAtiLkM

Hasn't this video been effectively debunked elsewhere? Generally, I like the way Thinker Thunker analyses evidence, but I think he's struck out big time with this one. Just sayin', and that's my $0.02 worth.

[Searcher]

G'day Dave,

I haven't seen any debunking articles on the Yellowstone National Park webcam footage. If you have found one, please let's know. It's just a pity we have the usual situation of blurry pictures and questionable interpretation...(sigh!)

Anyway, it seems today's Daily Mail thought the story was worth a run. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -them.html

[sapere aude]

Interesting view SA. Its always tricky dealing with sociology theories on countries as a whole, especially when religion and psychology is involved. Broad strokes miss finer truths. I seem to remember an Orang Pendek documentary where a researcher in Palembang, Indonesia (a 3rd world country), asked locals in town of their knowledge of the creature and he was laughed at.

I doubt that would be unusual with Orang Pendek, considering it has no known existence lol. Still, it is the most plausible and likely of them all IMO. From talking to people who hail from the region there is a "widespread" belief. A shame we don't have accurate figures, I wonder how it would compare to the US? The regions that do believe also seem to believe in all manner of other creatures, wonder if they have dogman, mothman equivalents? There aren't figures (specific to bigfoot) in the US comprehensive enough for a genuine study either, but possibly good enough to get a rough idea. They seem to indicate that as high as 7-12% of the population are "certain" that bigfoot exists, while a further 20-25% feel it probably exists. That's massive and would probably stack up well to any "3rd world" country. Even if 1% were "certain" it would still be millions of people.

Imagine a country the size of Australia ( US is slightly bigger) where a group equivalent to our entire population is "certain" that breeding populations of massive ape species exist on the edges of suburbia (the bigfoot of the remote west is a myth, most reports seem to be from the eastern half). Despite none ever being found in over 4 centuries..... in a place that has been well explored and exploited with many large mammals either extirpated from certain regions or brought to the brink of extinction.....

I wonder also how so many people could be "certain" unless they have seen bigfoot. If you have seen it personally, it's completely understandable and logical (I thought that was the most likely situation with Yowies at one stage, though not any more). What would that mean for the bigfoot population (unlikely they would all be seeing the same bigfoot lol)? Millions of bigfooots but not 1 found = cultural myth IMO.

It seems more likely that such certainty in bigfoot is because it is largely a faith based myth, to the point of being a quasi religion in the US. The parallels are there and bigfoot research certainly seems to follow the same pseudo scientific methods as creationism (which is basically to make all sorts of excuses for why it can't be found, even proclaiming such a request unreasonable...and then looking for things that can imaginatively be associated with bigfoot...which then becomes a self perpetuating myth). It's hard not to notice that neither of these subjects really need a guest of honour, to exist as they do. When the sociology of the US (since WW2) is considered, the bigfoot phenomena/mythology becomes far more understandable. Along with so many other myths and cults and a resurgence of religious fundamentalism (that surely rivals parts of the middle east). It could well be part of a natural human reaction to adverse social circumstances in the same way religious myths proliferate under such conditions. It could even lend some weight to the idea of a type of dissociation in some sightings (as in a possible catalyst for such a thing).

Though having a term for something doesn't necessarily equate to understanding it (even if it were that relavent) and it looks likely that something is happening, whether you believe in the paranormal or otherwise, that as yet no one understands.

It has evolved from an obscure and rare thing to the full blown bigfoot of pop culture over this time. There is a timeline for this modern bigfoot beginning with hoaxes and a lot of promotion in the 50's/60's (and countless since). Bigfoot appears to be a "borrowing" of the Yeti myth with a bit of Hollywood hype (bigger, faster, more explosions, no discernable story line lol).

There is critique available on claims of "bigfoot science" such as Meldrum's work (rather than the notion of bigfoot itself) by mainstream scientists at least as qualified (sometimes more relevantly so) who openly call it "a belief based pseudo science" with comments such as "Dr. Meldrum could benefit from spending time at the beach, to see what real hominid tracks look like" and so forth. For much of his claims (skookum, certain trackways, claims such as "we have everything but an actual bigfoot" lol), they are so unsupported and unrealistic that belief isn't necessary as much as "pretending". There is research in Australia similar, thankfully there are also efforts to actually find something directly indicative of Yowies that seems reasonable.

That nothing has really been found doesn't bode well as yet.

In pointing out the objections of scientists to the Ketchum fiasco (who, unlike Melba, are highly qualified with some having experience in this specialised field of genetic research) it becomes apparent that underneath the "Gish Gallup" of terminology that there is usually a very unscientific motive for it's acceptance. There is a sizeable group of researchers in the US who accept it because they feel it is consistent with creationism and the bible. Two invisible freinds for the price of one? It is ironic that such supporters are often the most vocal in ridiculing any suggestion that something paranormal could be occurring.

The "finer strokes" you mention have also been studied and the same correlation is found to exist within the US, down to a regional levels, as exists within the entire first world that we know of.

It is actually by studying bigfoot that I see them all as unlikely to physically exist, because there are parallel's. Yet many things that seem to parallel are actually so contrived and superficial regarding bigfoot, that in many ways it is on it's own and I haven't completely given up on other "hairymen" existing. Strange that bigfoot is looked up to as some sort of "gold standard" within Cryptozoology, while in real academia and science, it is looked at as a "gold standard" for mythology.

[Ray Doherty]

FYI

http://cliffbarackman.com/research/oran ... ng-pendek/

http://www.orangpendek.org/

Ray