Paranormal vs Flesh and Blood - an occultist's perspective.

[sensesonfire]

Very interesting themanfromglad. I have been wondering a similar thing in regards to the frequency and vibration in regards to the yowie If possible. Maybe this could explain the way some people who have observed them describe the yowies/bigfoot faces and structure constantly changing.

I believe that what you are referring to falls into the realm of shape shifting. Native Americans have reported that Bigfoot shape shift into other animals, or shape shift into being able to run in quadrapedal motion, as if they are suddenly a bear. Of course, I can't leave out the 3 witnesses that I know of, of a Bigfoot shape shifting into a visible orb, and continuing on it's way.

In conclusion, if only one Bigfoot can be invisible or shape shift, then no blanket statement can be made that the Bigfoot are flesh & blood 24/7.

In



Themanfromglad wrote "In conclusion, if only one Bigfoot can be invisible or shape shift, then no blanket statement can be made that the Bigfoot are flesh & blood 24/7."[/quote].

Agree with you 100% themanfromglad although I will go one step further and say as I have done previously they are not flesh & blood. Far too many people with the same mind/opinion that Bigfoot/Yowie do have paranormal abilities. It does not equate in my way of thinking that a creature of flesh and blood can have supernatural abilities. Unfortunately many will try their utmost to vindicate the flesh & blood Bigfoot even if they witness paranormal activity they will suggest an alternative explanation even though there isn't any. All Bigfoot/Yowie researchers have and are entitled to varying opinions but I find it extremely frustrating when confronted by the bleeding obvious they will look elsewhere for a justification.

[sensesonfire]

I will retract half of my theory of a no flesh and blood Bigfoot or Yowie. While I will concede that they may be flesh I do not believe they are blood. If anyone found a dead Bigfoot or shot one (although I'm convinced that is not going to happen) you would not find a heart, lungs or other human like body organs - hence no blood.

[Simon M]

There's no way of knowing any of this stuff - we don't know enough about these creatures to draw too many conclusions beyond the fact that people keep encountering them. We know they're present, but we know very little else.

For all I know they could be alien androids like in that episode of The Six Million Dollar Man....but there's no way or proving or disproving that or any other detailed theory.

They exist, they're mammals, they display a range of characteristic behaviours which focus on avoiding humans, and they leave some physical evidence. That's about all I could ever realistically argue in favour of.

[sensesonfire]

There's no way of knowing any of this stuff - we don't know enough about these creatures to draw too many conclusions beyond the fact that people keep encountering them. We know they're present, but we know very little else.

For all I know they could be alien androids like in that episode of The Six Million Dollar Man....but there's no way or proving or disproving that or any other detailed theory.

They exist, they're mammals, they display a range of characteristic behaviours which focus on avoiding humans, and they leave some physical evidence. That's about all I could ever realistically argue in favour of.

Agree with most of what you say however, I dont believe they are mammals necessarily. I don't think they actually avoid humans more to the point that they will reveal themselves when they want, as it is said you don't find bigfoot, they find you. I believe bigfoot are both physical and spiritual beings and in many cases when we think they are not around they are but in spiritual form the reason why when thermal imagers are produced in known Bigfoot hotspots nothing is seen. As you say there is no way of knowing any of this stuff so it's all about your own personal views.

[themanfromglad]

I will retract half of my theory of a no flesh and blood Bigfoot or Yowie. While I will concede that they may be flesh I do not believe they are blood. If anyone found a dead Bigfoot or shot one (although I'm convinced that is not going to happen) you would not find a heart, lungs or other human like body organs - hence no blood.

A friend of mine that worked for the railroads, told me that what the old train men told him. Which was that when a train hits a Bigfoot, they often find, "no bones, but they do find a blood hairy pulp". Which appears to mean no organs either. It also can mean that the body parts that were not found, were either always in another dimension, or have an "at rest state" in another dimension. Which then means that they can have bones and organs, but they did not die and leave those parts in man's dimension.

[sensesonfire]

I will retract half of my theory of a no flesh and blood Bigfoot or Yowie. While I will concede that they may be flesh I do not believe they are blood. If anyone found a dead Bigfoot or shot one (although I'm convinced that is not going to happen) you would not find a heart, lungs or other human like body organs - hence no blood.

A friend of mine that worked for the railroads, told me that what the old train men told him. Which was that when a train hits a Bigfoot, they often find, "no bones, but they do find a blood hairy pulp". Which appears to mean no organs either. It also can mean that the body parts that were not found, were either always in another dimension, or have an "at rest state" in another dimension. Which then means that they can have bones and organs, but they did not die and leave those parts in man's dimension.

I know that cryptozoology is a work in progress and I find I have changed some of my beliefs as I discover more information. I watch that annoying TV show Finding Bigfoot over and over again not because I particularly enjoy it but because I pick up clues that I have missed previously as to my belief in what these creatures are. I regard the presenters as sadly misguided. My opinion that Bigfoot are both physical and spiritual form does give some support to your theory that they can have bones and organs, but they did not die and leave those parts in man's dimension. I believe these creatures are immortal in spiritual form or at least live to an incredible old age as to the reason we don't find any bodies but in physical form they are susceptable to trauma/physical injury as to why they are found when a train hits them. The physical Bigfoot must eat but of course not when they are in spiritual form.I just don't believe that their anatomy/physiology when in physical form is necessarily the same as humans or animals.

[sensesonfire]

Been reading many amazing stories of members of the Yowiehunters Forum and their encounters with the Yowie in particular Wellymon's reports, one in which he describes a Yowie disappearing almost at the speed of light, this is beyond the realms of a scientific explanation even if science actually believed in these creatures. Another report was of a lady and her daughter moving into a home with the verandah facing an oval and surrounding bush. She heard noises one night and went to investigate and was confronted with a three foot Yowie (junjudee) screaming at her like a banshee before running off into the bush. Many of these encounters read like a script from a Stephen King horror movie.


I've watched countless programs of America's Finding Bigfoot where the crew report having sticks, rocks or branches thrown at them and hearing Bigfoot steps less than 50 metres from them when the thermal - imager comes out not a Bigfoot to be seen - in other words invisible or disappeared at the speed of light. We have so called Bigfoot samples ( hair, scats mainly) sent for DNA analyses and all come back inconclusive evidence. I just don't know how long it's going to take before the ''penny drops'' and people realise that these creatures - Yowies, Bigfoot etc - are not entirely of this world - a part supernatural hybrid.

Just a warning to anyone intending to track them, paulmcleod67's reports of mysterious disappearances and even deaths in the bush may or may not be attributed to a Yowie attack. I believe the authorities know a lot more about these cases than they are prepared to reveal. Yowies will seek you out if willing and remember your life is entirly in their hands.

[OnlyTheGhosts]

I'm of the opinion they're flesh & blood creatures, and that in no way detracts from the possibility of them having paranormal abilities because I've seen - and known quite well - humans who have some unusual "paranormal" abilities too. Including myself, at least according to others.

I suspect the reports by witnesses mentioning sudden "disappearance" as the creature had gone away into mist or teleported or gone to another dimension, are the result of tricks of the sort which Japanese ninja were purportedly capable of. Tricking the mind of the witness to believe the creature is no longer there, while the creature may in truth be standing right in front of them. They're effectively forcing the human witness to 'not' see, except what the creature wants them to 'see'. The creature's location becomes a blind spot.

[gregvalentine]

I'm of the opinion they're flesh & blood creatures, and that in no way detracts from the possibility of them having paranormal abilities because I've seen - and known quite well - humans who have some unusual "paranormal" abilities too. Including myself, at least according to others.

I suspect the reports by witnesses mentioning sudden "disappearance" as the creature had gone away into mist or teleported or gone to another dimension, are the result of tricks of the sort which Japanese ninja were purportedly capable of. Tricking the mind of the witness to believe the creature is no longer there, while the creature may in truth be standing right in front of them. They're effectively forcing the human witness to 'not' see, except what the creature wants them to 'see'. The creature's location becomes a blind spot.

"Paranormal" seems like a fairly general word. To me, for yowies etc., it would encompass the ability to be both "flesh and blood" AND "invisible" (whatever that means) and to be able to shift between the two states, with not one state being their "normal" (usual) one.

[Simon M]

I still think the theory that they can somehow confuse or distort human perception seems more likely than any other explanation for their more mysterious qualities.

Mind you, I haven't seen a Yowie (or anything else that qualifies as paranormal or supernatural), but I think the idea that they can use infra sound, pheromones, or a combination of the two in order to confuse any human they see as a threat seems more likely than any of the more esoteric explanations I've read about.

I'd even accept (at a stretch) that they're capable of using some form of psychic ability before I'd accept the idea that these things can simply vanish without a trace.

[sensesonfire]

Sasquatch in the US has been seen in pixelated form, apparently has the ability to levitate, run up sandy knolls without leaving any footprints or displacement of rocks, the ability to disappear in front of your eyes when a weapon has been discharged at point blank range. Has been seen in the company of orbs. A lot of questions with unsatisfactory explanations.

[Simon M]

There's also the possibility that the whole Apeman phenomenon is a manifestation of human psychic energy. A psychic projection, if you like.

As mentioned in The Yowie: In Search of Australia’s Bigfoot, some eyewitness accounts involving rocks being thrown, walls being banged upon, things appearing and disappearing and so forth are similar to poltergeist reports in many ways.

I'm not saying I think this theory is correct (I don't), but it's still an interesting idea.

There's also the fact that many European legends exist regarding 'Forest Men', and they're associated with what are traditionally believed to be "haunted" areas.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Am_Fear_Liath_M%C3%B2r

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_man

There may be aspects to these creatures which we cannot presently define, but I still think it's more likely they're able to interfere with our perceptions than it is that they're simply vanishing.

[Yowie bait]

Sasquatch in the US has been seen in pixelated form, apparently has the ability to levitate, run up sandy knolls without leaving any footprints or displacement of rocks, the ability to disappear in front of your eyes when a weapon has been discharged at point blank range. Has been seen in the company of orbs. A lot of questions with unsatisfactory explanations.

There has been enough reports of dissapearing and shapeshifting by reputable ( imo ) researchers and forum members for me to believe their is some creedence to the paranormal. Others allude to something odd but wont elaborate which i dont blame them for at all.

With the encounters , well these people are seeing something theyve never seen before or told dont exist so it can be interpreted by them in all sorts of ways depending on their belief system, imagination or whatever.

In my own encounter, we tried to rationalise it as being something else even though we were sure what it was. One of our theories was it was multiple animals as well as a human. Another theory was something that changed appearance..shapeshifting i guess u could say.

It probably was just a flesh and blood encounter, its just that its so freaky and terrifying to see such a strange and unbelievable thing that its hard to rationalise what happened.

[Simon M]

It probably was just a flesh and blood encounter, its just that its so freaky and terrifying to see such a strange and unbelievable thing that its hard to rationalise what happened.

I think that's definitely part of it as well - you're so busy trying to fit what you're seeing into your view of reality that the entire experience might seem surreal in retrospect. You'd wonder whether you'd 'really' seen what you know you saw, because of confirmation bias (as well as being shocked).

I've never seen one of these creatures and probably never will, but I can imagine you'd need clean undies afterwards - every encounter sounds like an intense and visceral experience. You're not just seeing this thing, you're experiencing its presence and it's huge and terrifying, etc. Even if you knew what you were seeing it'd still be damned scary; if you didn't know, or weren't expecting it, I think it'd be frightening beyond description.

[Yowie bait]

It probably was just a flesh and blood encounter, its just that its so freaky and terrifying to see such a strange and unbelievable thing that its hard to rationalise what happened.

I think that's definitely part of it as well - you're so busy trying to fit what you're seeing into your view of reality that the entire experience might seem surreal in retrospect. You'd wonder whether you'd 'really' seen what you know you saw, because of confirmation bias (as well as being shocked).

I've never seen one of these creatures and probably never will, but I can imagine you'd need clean undies afterwards - every encounter sounds like an intense and visceral experience. You're not just seeing this thing, you're experiencing its presence and it's huge and terrifying, etc. Even if you knew what you were seeing it'd still be damned scary; if you didn't know, or weren't expecting it, I think it'd be frightening beyond description.

Its interesting that Healy and Cropoer in the book "australian poltergeist" make a comparison to the yowie and poltergeist.

Theres rock throwing, cloaked figures,vocalisations, dissapearing and red glowing eyes, dread etc so i can see why they would compare. They make the same comparison in the aussie yowie as well i think?

[Cartman]

While I have a interest in both the paranormal and the yowie, I was suprised to find in the following article a couple months back that the possibility that the two may crossover - I immediately thought of the strange flashing lights that Paul M. reported during his encounter at West Wyalong. I dont know if this is a commonly reported phenomena

http://weekinweird.com/2016/12/08/bigfo ... een-flash/

I will have the opportunity to actually to speak to the authors at Cryptocon "Bigfoot, Mysteries and Legends" on 9-10 September 2017 in Frankfort Kentucky, and quiz them more on this subject. I am in the US for the total eclipse of the Sun on August 21, a quick visit to friends in Europe, then back to Ohio and Kentucky in time for the conference. I am actually looking forward to this event as there is a quite a crossover of folk from the paranormal and bigfoot community (my anticipation more so since unfortunately Paracon 2017 has been cancelled this year)

[Simon M]

Its interesting that Healy and Cropoer in the book "australian poltergeist" make a comparison to the yowie and poltergeist.

Theres rock throwing, cloaked figures,vocalisations, dissapearing and red glowing eyes, dread etc so i can see why they would compare. They make the same comparison in the aussie yowie as well i think?

Indeed they do, and that's where I read about it. I'd never made any kind of connection in my mind before, but there are clear similarities in what's being described by eyewitnesses.

If the Yowie was/is a projection of the human mind, with only a limited or temporary physical presence, that would account for a lot of the inexplicable factors associated with them. Again, as ever, there's no way of proving this.

[Speck]

It probably was just a flesh and blood encounter, its just that its so freaky and terrifying to see such a strange and unbelievable thing that its hard to rationalise what happened.

I think that's definitely part of it as well - you're so busy trying to fit what you're seeing into your view of reality that the entire experience might seem surreal in retrospect. You'd wonder whether you'd 'really' seen what you know you saw, because of confirmation bias (as well as being shocked).

I've never seen one of these creatures and probably never will, but I can imagine you'd need clean undies afterwards - every encounter sounds like an intense and visceral experience. You're not just seeing this thing, you're experiencing its presence and it's huge and terrifying, etc. Even if you knew what you were seeing it'd still be damned scary; if you didn't know, or weren't expecting it, I think it'd be frightening beyond description.

Its interesting that Healy and Cropoer in the book "australian poltergeist" make a comparison to the yowie and poltergeist.

Theres rock throwing, cloaked figures,vocalisations, dissapearing and red glowing eyes, dread etc so i can see why they would compare. They make the same comparison in the aussie yowie as well i think?

Yes, I have watched several videos from our local 'ghost hunter' where the investigator is poking around at night in a somewhat wooded and rarely visited area and hearing sticks break and having small rocks thrown at him. HE is thinking it is a ghost, it's very interesting that the same happens in Sasquatch reports.

[Simon M]

It may be that they are different aspects of the same phenomenon. Of course it's impossible to prove.

[Yowie bait]

If you were getting stinked out and the infrasound treatment ( if thats what they do with the dread etc. ) plus the rock throwing or strange noises, then someone would possibly think they were getting haunted.

[Simon M]

If you were getting stinked out and the infrasound treatment ( if thats what they do with the dread etc. ) plus the rock throwing or strange noises, then someone would possibly think they were getting haunted.

Yep, I agree.

Since first arriving on this forum, the main thing I've learned is that the central problem with investigating this whole concept/creature is one of human perception.

One person's clear and detailed footprint cast is another person's obvious hoax. There are so many facile counter arguments that people can produce in order to dismiss the Yowie phenomenon; simply adopting an attitude of condescension seems to be all most people need to assume their scepticism is some kind of slam-dunk argument that proves all the evidence is incorrect. You'll often hear people say 'it's been proven to be fake'....but ask them when, by whom, and how it is that people have been faking the same thing across the globe for thousands of years and they suddenly seem less smug.

People generally dislike having their prejudices questioned - and if you're not someone who enjoys asking questions or learning then ignoring this stuff is extremely easy.

I like the fact that this is a forum where different ideas can be talked through - I don't always agree with everyone, but it's interesting to note the similarities between the Yowie and poltergeist phenomena.

Again, it could be that human perception - when in a flight-or-fight state of panic or stress - works differently than it normally does, or different cognitive factors come into play which exaggerate some types of memories or obscure other ones, etc.

I suppose I'm willing to accept the possibility that Yowies are able to do things we don't understand, but I still don't accept the idea of them (or anything) being supernatural. Anything we describe as supernatural is - in my view - simply a natural phenomenon we don't understand yet.

I also don't think ghosts/poltergeists are dead people's ghosts - I think they may be psychic projections, or psychokinesis, or some other form of energy discharge human beings can produce or receive (but not necessarily control) with our subconscious minds.

Science may not have the language to describe some things as yet...but they're not mystical, just yet to be explained or defined...or even accepted as genuine phenomena.

My opinion is that people keep experiencing things they cannot explain, so the only way to understand these experiences is to keep asking questions and recording information.

I have zero experience and no understanding of any of this. I am fascinated by the concept of Yowies/Wildmen and always have been. There are many ideas about what they are, but I work on the assumption that they're living creatures whose chief survival strategy throughout their history has been the avoidance of homo sapiens.

I could accept that they're a form of psychic projection - a projection with psychokinetic attributes that leaves footprints and anything else we'd assume a living animal would leave behind it. That seems less unreasonable to me than the 'interdimensional' thing, although I don't know why. Both ideas are pretty out there, really.

That's really only a consideration though...my own 'plan B' for them. I prefer to think they're living creatures with capabilities we do not have and which we may not even understand. That's as far as I would go with any kind of conjecture about their true nature.

[Yowie bait]

Maybe portals and interdimensional or underground caves is stuff we dont know about yet?

Could it be that we are the true primitives? Lacking in senses and mind power due to our over reliance on technology that has halted or slowed down our own physical and mental advancement.

[Simon M]

I think the idea about underground caves is a completely valid one. If they're as attuned to their surroundings as they seem to be, and if they're as intelligent as the evidence suggests they are, then they'd know every detail of the landscape in order to facilitate their own survival. They hunt wild animals, so they'd need to be extremely stealthy and they'd need to know where the best hiding places are. It's our own hubris that leads us to think they couldn't possibly avoid us in their own habitat.

They're strong, smart, and have senses more highly developed than ours are - that's my explanation for why they're so elusive. I know it's a mundane explanation, but it's the most reasonable one (in my opinion).

There may be a variety of weirdness going on - as people have alluded to - I honestly don't know. I tend to think there's a logical explanation for all of it. I think the 'infrasound' thing is interesting and plausible (and audio report #109 seems to hint at how they use sound....if the person is being truthful), but there's a lot we don't know (yet).

[sensesonfire]

Very interesting themanfromglad. I have been wondering a similar thing in regards to the frequency and vibration in regards to the yowie If possible. Maybe this could explain the way some people who have observed them describe the yowies/bigfoot faces and structure constantly changing.

I believe that what you are referring to falls into the realm of shape shifting. Native Americans have reported that Bigfoot shape shift into other animals, or shape shift into being able to run in quadrapedal motion, as if they are suddenly a bear. Of course, I can't leave out the 3 witnesses that I know of, of a Bigfoot shape shifting into a visible orb, and continuing on it's way.

In conclusion, if only one Bigfoot can be invisible or shape shift, then no blanket statement can be made that the Bigfoot are flesh & blood 24/7.

I believe Bigfoot/ Yowies and their illustrious offsider Dogman are both flesh and blood and spiritual, changing from one to the other when necessary. I think they are virtually immortal or at the very least extremely old as conveyed to a forum member by a Yowie communicating telepathically or as she preferred to be referred to as a Bunyip. This is the reason no bodies or even bones have been found.

With the flesh and blood aspect, I'm not convinced it is in the same anatomical sense as humans or I suspect even animals. If only we could produce a dead cryptid and do an autopsy I think scientists would be astounded with what is revealed. Never going to happen though can't catch one let alone kill one. .

[Rusty2]

they are not flesh & blood.

While I will concede that they may be flesh I do not believe they are blood.

I believe Bigfoot/ Yowies and their illustrious offsider Dogman are both flesh and blood and spiritual

Lotsa people get so involved with all this , trying to figure things out that they end up burning themselves , I've seen it many times , please be careful .

[Searcher]

they are not flesh & blood.

While I will concede that they may be flesh I do not believe they are blood.

I believe Bigfoot/ Yowies and their illustrious offsider Dogman are both flesh and blood and spiritual

Lotsa people get so involved with all this , trying to figure things out that they end up burning themselves , I've seen it many times , please be careful .

You are right, Rusty. Those statements are certainly ambiguous. However, it is difficult to get a clear direction of thought on this phenomena!

Re-reading through the above posts in this interesting thread, I noticed Simon said: "My opinion is that people keep experiencing things they cannot explain, so the only way to understand these experiences is to keep asking questions and recording information. I have zero experience and no understanding of any of this."

The zero experience surprises me. I would suggest by far the majority of this forum's posters have had some supernatural or ghostly experience in their lifetime that could not readily be explained. Am I right in thinking this? I know I have had quite a few!

[Yowie bait]

they are not flesh & blood.

While I will concede that they may be flesh I do not believe they are blood.

I believe Bigfoot/ Yowies and their illustrious offsider Dogman are both flesh and blood and spiritual

Lotsa people get so involved with all this , trying to figure things out that they end up burning themselves , I've seen it many times , please be careful .

You are right, Rusty. Those statements are certainly ambiguous. However, it is difficult to get a clear direction of thought on this phenomena!

Re-reading through the above posts in this interesting thread, I noticed Simon said: "My opinion is that people keep experiencing things they cannot explain, so the only way to understand these experiences is to keep asking questions and recording information. I have zero experience and no understanding of any of this."

The zero experience surprises me. I would suggest by far the majority of this forum's posters have had some supernatural or ghostly experience in their lifetime that could not readily be explained. Am I right in thinking this? I know I have had quite a few!

Ha i have changed my perspective over and over. The "flesh and blood " Yowie is confusing enough without adding the "high strangness" of the phenomenon into the equation but fact is they do weird stuff that cant or wont be explained by science or yowie researchers other than to dismiss or ridicule.



Like Searcher I have had "experiences" and it seems ongoing for me to the point i dont even care anymore. Im constantly meeting people that have had similar or even wilder experiences all with different explanations and reasons depending on their views of life , religion, science etc

Im happy to accept that there is another world and beings with abilities out there that is at present not fathomable to our human minds as anything similar to what we have been taught to accept other than story books and myths. F&B AND spiritual is what i keep hearing but yeah like Rusty has said theres no point doing your head in or arguing over it!

[sensesonfire]

So true Yowie bait. I've changed my opinions on and off as to their physical/supernatural state. A comment made by OnSafari247
They're not biological in origin but spiritual. Spiritual does not mean they don't have physical bodies; they absolutely do. Angels in the Bible are described as having physical bodies. 2) They move back and forth between this world and the spiritual world. When they're here they still do things like eat and go to the bathroom etc....but they also have supernatural abilities.

I totally agree with this comment but with the flesh and blood aspect, I believe it is not in the human anatomical concept.
I think we all agree to the existence of these cryptids maybe disagreeing a little on their physical/spiritual makeup but the big question is that they appear to be increasing in numbers worldwide so we have to ask why? and ultimately their motives.

[Yowie bait]

So true Yowie bait. I've changed my opinions on and off as to their physical/supernatural state. A comment made by OnSafari247
They're not biological in origin but spiritual. Spiritual does not mean they don't have physical bodies; they absolutely do. Angels in the Bible are described as having physical bodies. 2) They move back and forth between this world and the spiritual world. When they're here they still do things like eat and go to the bathroom etc....but they also have supernatural abilities.

I totally agree with this comment but with the flesh and blood aspect, I believe it is not in the human anatomical concept.
I think we all agree to the existence of these cryptids maybe disagreeing a little on their physical/spiritual makeup but the big question is that they appear to be increasing in numbers worldwide so we have to ask why? and ultimately their motives.

Maybe the more sightings is due to the ever increasing forest clearing forcing them in closer to civilization or increased curiosity in us over time?

If there were thousands of bigfoots or yowies hellbent on attacking us , I'm sure theyd be able to make a good go of it and who really knows how many there are and different types?

Im sure some are freindly, some are bad but either way they seem keen on observing us and sometimes interacting if all the encounters are anything to go by.

[Hauntedman]

I believe I have a good example of Bigfoot having inter-dimensional abilities or at least some of them being able to affect radio frequencies. One of them intercepted my ghost box session here in Auckland back in early 2015 after returning from years living in the USA (the message gets repeated); note I have done paranormal investigating for a while and with teams in the past. Check it out (from around the 7:20 mark) this is amazing and real, they aren't dumb apes: https://youtu.be/ZVi-KaD9FSg
thoughts?